Author Topic: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!  (Read 3025 times)

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2019, 11:28:09 am »

Atz a really nice '51 conversion there TL.  Really like it.  I could almost be tempted to build myself a pair.  I do however remember what it cost to build my pair of Pietta 44s with Kirst Saber River kits.  On top of which I already have 2 pair of Pietta .36 Cal Snubbies I'm shooting with R & D conversion Cylinders.  AND, on top of all of that, I have a pair of Uberti (Gasp!!!) factory '51 conversions I have already cut to the Ejector assembly.  Almost tempted.  Not quite.  But still a really nice '51 Conversion TL.

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2019, 10:34:35 pm »
The load developing begins.:
 
The first load is a control:  A Bear Creek 140 grain, .375" diameter, heeled bullet, in a .38 Colt case over 3.2 grains of Trail Boss. Since I don't have the crimp die yet, I used a 4 point stab crimp like com-bloc ammo. 

Note:  The 140 Bear Creek heeled does not need to be used in the shorter .88" 38 Long case that was designed for healed bullets.  The Kirst cylinder is long enough to use the 1.02" long case designed for the 150 inside lube.  This is awesome for case capacity if using BP.  I LOVE the 140 grain Bear Creek!


First set is using a Black Hills soft lead 148 grain hollow base wadcutter in a Starline/Black Hills .38 Colt brass.  The bullet is set 1/4" from flush to give .38 Special-ist case capacity. Powder charges are WW231, Unique, and Trail Boss, all around 3.0 grains.

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2019, 03:02:58 am »
Looking good, TL.

I really like the new heal-based RN bullets. Those are really quite "stubby" for a round-nose!

I am also impressed by your 4 point stake crimp, simple & effective.

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Offline Marshal Will Wingam

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2019, 09:37:00 am »
What did you use for that crimp?

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Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2019, 09:00:18 pm »
Its actually from a wire crimping/stripping pliers.  The yellow dipper handle in the picture points at the spot I am using.  I centered it in the jaws and it made four dimples in the perfect place.  I do have a heel base crimp die on the way from Bernie at Old West Bullet moulds! 

I think with the heeled bullet being stubby enough to use in unmodified 1.02" 38 Long Colt brass, the heeled bullet offers the maximum performance because of increased case capacity with only the heel in the case.  A full with slight compression from the heel case of BP (about 18.5 grains) will be a stomper!

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Offline Abilene

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2019, 11:44:09 pm »
That's some fine southern engineering.  :)

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2019, 11:53:02 pm »
I married into an Okie (transplanted to California) family.  I guess a little Okie engineering rubbed off on me over the last fifty years....
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Offline Marshal Will Wingam

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2019, 12:06:02 am »
That's certainly a simple crimping tool. I have the identical one. Good to remember should I decide to try heeled 38's. Thanks for that.

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Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2019, 12:18:47 am »
It works OK, but not nearly as secure as a crimp die.  Better than gluing them it with Elmers like one article I read!  I do have high hopes for the 150 Grain, round nose hollow base bullet development.  It is an easy answer that works in both lined and unlined bores. 

If I do get serious about .38 Long Colt for my future use, the hollow base wadcutter seated 1/4" out would not ring my chimes. It may work well, but is fugly and hard to load since the bullet has a sharp 90  degree flat nose with no taper or bevel.  About ever third one jams down in the case all the way.  With OWBM's crimp die (that works like a LEE factory crimp die), it looks like it is no harder to load them on my LEE 4 stage turret press with auto-index, than any other load.

The 140 grain, .375" inch, heeled bullet would however ring them load and clear, and be totally awesome (if the 150 RNHB doesn't materialize).
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Offline Drydock

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2019, 09:57:38 am »
I have a couple of the OWBM heel crimp dies.  They work great!
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

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Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2019, 06:30:13 pm »
Hello the camp!  An update. EMF has not been able to get any more Remingtons in .36 lately, so the second revolver will be a 4 inch barreled 1851.  A Captain Schaeffer 1851 at that!  That is actually better choice than the 36 Remington, as it will prove out if the HB bullets obdurate in a shorter barrel.

For those unfamiliar with it:  This will make a sweet little .38 Long Colt!  I'll even shorten the ejector assembly to mount on it.


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Offline Marshal Will Wingam

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2019, 06:45:56 pm »
That'll look great! I'm glad you are going to test one with a shorter barrel. There is a need for good performance in those.

I'll be interested to see how you shorten that ejector.

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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2019, 08:47:10 am »

I shall follow the progress of the Capt. Schaeffer with huge interest.  I have a pair, however I utilize two Stainless R & D cylinders.  Gated conversion will be hugely interesting to say the least.

Offline Hoof Hearted

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2019, 09:54:16 am »
They?ll look a lot like their predecessors, the ?Old Silver?!
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Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2019, 11:09:34 am »
Nice!!!!!
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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2019, 11:16:39 am »
Those look good, HH. They look like 44's. Where do they shoot? I have one that needs a much higher front sight.

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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2019, 12:20:07 pm »

HH Always has some really NICE TOYS!!  My 1860s with Kirst also shot quite high.  I dovetailed new front sights (some taller)!!

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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2019, 03:44:54 pm »
Update:  Pietta didn't go for the Captain Schaeffer for the second gun, but they did find a 4.5" 1851 .36 Caliber instead. That is actually better for testing as few 1851s are shorter than 4.5".
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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2019, 08:23:39 pm »
Those look good, HH. They look like 44's. Where do they shoot? I have one that needs a much higher front sight.
I?m guessing they shoot at wherever the owner points them? LoL
But seriously we all know that bullet weight and charge greatly affect POA.
These were built for a customer a few years back.....
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Re: The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2019, 11:15:52 pm »
I?m guessing they shoot at wherever the owner points them? LoL
But seriously we all know that bullet weight and charge greatly affect POA.
These were built for a customer a few years back.....
OK, thanks. I was curious. i'll just have to fashion a decent front sight for mine.

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