Author Topic: I am trying  (Read 898 times)

Offline Bunk Stagnerg

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I am trying
« on: June 12, 2019, 12:09:06 pm »
I am trying to think (ouch) of something so controversial  or so irritating that it will get some conversations going.
But other than saying Pyrodex sux (and it does) or the Colt Open Top revolver is a superior design to the Remington closed top (and they are) I am bereft of an idea.
Really guys the forum is dead. Is it the weather or is everyone tied up by the "W" word (work)?
Coffinmaker, Professor Marvel, somebody, any body, please help me out here.
Yr' (trouble making) Obt' Svt'
Bunk

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2019, 10:48:23 am »

Well ..... OK .....  ::)

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2019, 05:01:03 pm »
I agree Bunk, the arbor system is superior (if you're talking strength), top straps are easier/cheaper to produce though. As best as I remember,  pyrodex was kinda  sucky but I was shooting trip7 when I .  .  .  bowed out .  .  . 
 When I was gonna "bow" back in, is when I had to go ca'tridge (which was the genesis of what I do now!!)
  Maybe folks could list the things they would like to see in the "Ultimate"  open top (cap or cart.) or Remington pattern revolver (cap or cart.)?.
 
 As of now, for open tops you can get a : cap post, bolt block, an action stop, action shield, flat springs converted to coil/coil torsion,  hardened screws and of course arbor correction/adjustment.
 Same with the Remington pattern (except the cap post and arbor correction).

Things that may be coming:
 - High power nipples (more power for the hunter, more shots per lb. for the cowboy shooter)
 - ROA gated conversion (capable of shooting "Ruger only" loads)
 - Wedge-less Dragoon for the hunter/target shooter in cap form and cartridge form (safe with Ruger onlys too)

    Just some thoughts .  .  .  . well some are further along than thought .  .  .  . 

Mike
   
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Offline greenjoytj

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2019, 05:59:24 pm »
I was thinking the the old style button pocket balloon head cases base had an advantage.
That is because the primer flash hole is above the base in a tower with powder lying below the flash hole.
This system reminds me of artillery shells that have a tube that transmits the primary flash up to near the base of the projectile, forcing the powder to burn backward towards the shell base.
That system is supposed increase muzzle velocity by making the powder burn more efficiently.
I say the old ballon head cases like those used in the 45 Colt may have received boost in velocity due to this design.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 06:02:54 pm by greenjoytj »

Offline Bunk Stagnerg

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2019, 07:21:19 pm »
I had some of those almost rimless button head cases and found, much to my surprise, they did not hold significantly more weight of powder (FFFg GOEX) than a new Starline .45 Colt or even a .454 Casull case. Those old-style cases do not have that groove under the rim and will not fit in a modern shell holder.

I think they were lost in my upcoming move,I don't know because all my worldly goods are in boxes in storage.

The head of those old cases is quite thin but did not make a whole lot more room in the case.

At any rate the only way I could have reloaded them would require getting out my antique Ideal nut cracker tool and I didn?t  think it was worth the effort.
For what it is worth I posted those numbers a couple of months ago on this forum and my technique used.
 Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

Offline greenjoytj

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2019, 05:47:32 am »
How much powder would it take to level the powder flush with the top of the tower the holds the primer?
I would think it?s this ring of powder around the primer tower the sets the case volume apart from a modern case.
Unless the thickness of the tapering case wall in a modern case compensates for the space lost around the primer.

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2019, 06:52:54 am »

Almost a comparison of apples and .. well ... apples.  Almost but not quite.  The great leveler of playing field is the propellant.  The differences of velocity between the original 45 Colt cartridge and the modern 45 Colt cartridge when loaded with Black Powder is sufficient to be interesting.

The game changer comes in when we think about it with Smokeless.  The velocities that can be reached are enough to curl your hair.  The heavy base web of the 45 Colt allows velocities well above those of the 44 Mangelem.  Pressure levels that would blow out the base of the old balloon head cases.

But I digress.  My original intent was to bad mouth Remington,  Remington revolvers of the period suck.  Not necessarily from a strength point, but from an ergo naught  angle of the dangle.  Wrap your mits around a Remington and set it off and it hurts.  Bashes the signal finger something awful.  Horrible guns.  Simply horrible.  So There.

Offline Bunk Stagnerg

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2019, 07:53:07 am »
One thing that did not occur to me was to weigh the cases.
When I get unpacked and do still have those cases i will see if there s a big difference in weight.
Since that button,just holds the primer is not much taller than the primer cup .
Perhaps the case is thinner of that i am not sure, but I know a collector that has a box of brand new unfired cases.
Bunk

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2019, 02:54:02 am »
Ah My Good Bunk...

I will tax my remaining little grey cells to attempt to generate some new topics that might generate some lively dis us soon .. .   DAMn YOu AuTocorrect ...

I shall make a pointed effort to abstain from anything political or religious as I wish to remain on CAS City and also since I was raised presbyhoovian I do not want to increase my karmic burden , and I dare not venture into politics as I promised I would not Do Things that might cause me to go berserker, paint my face black,  call upon the creatures of the night, or raise my blood pressure.
Or make me irritable.

Besides, Mrs Marvel is under strict orders to dart me if my eyes start to glow ...

Soooooo ...
Regarding balloon headed cases, whilst I do not have any I am more than happy to render an opinion based on sheer ignorance ....

I think they worked ok back in the day with finer grades of BP Since BP has a wonderful slow pressure
rise, they wanted to cram as much powder in as possible , and cases were mostly considered expendable, and thus ( here is a wild unsubstantiated opinion) did not care so much about rim size...

Let the rants and actual fact base discussion commence!

Yhs
Prof mumbles
They did not worry about large rims so much....
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Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2019, 03:00:49 am »
How much powder would it take to level the powder flush with the top of the tower the holds the primer?
I would think it?s this ring of powder around the primer tower the sets the case volume apart from a modern case.
Unless the thickness of the tapering case wall in a modern case compensates for the space lost around the primer.

My Good Greenjoy, You may be on to something.
By igniting a donut of powder a couple of millimeters into the powder column, one will certainly get a. complex ignition shape (like a donut?) going in both directions.... perhaps like a badly shaped charge...

Yhs
Prof Marvel
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Offline Capt Quirk

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2019, 07:32:26 am »
My Good Greenjoy, You may be on to something.
By igniting a donut of powder a couple of millimeters into the powder column, one will certainly get a. complex ignition shape (like a donut?) going in both directions.... perhaps like a badly shaped charge...

Yhs
Prof Marvel
Finally, there is a subject that I know a little bit! I prefer glazed donuts over powdered any day  ;D

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2019, 07:37:11 pm »
Finally, there is a subject that I know a little bit! I prefer glazed donuts over powdered any day  ;D

AHA!

I am told that glazed powders are betterer than unglazed, because of science...
and they make less dust,
and fewer "fines"      ( that's fine I suppose, or at least all well and good )

We do know that "more powder was betterer" back then,
until The Gov't decided that more cost more and thus more was bad....

yhs
prof (don't make my eyes glow) marvel
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Offline greyhawk

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2019, 06:20:08 am »
AHA!

I am told that glazed powders are betterer than unglazed, because of science...
and they make less dust,
and fewer "fines"      ( that's fine I suppose, or at least all well and good )

We do know that "more powder was betterer" back then,
until The Gov't decided that more cost more and thus more was bad....

yhs
prof (don't make my eyes glow) marvel

who told ya glazed wuz better - I bin shootin unglazed fer 25 years - did it cuz I reckoned it wuz better - now along comes the nutty perfesser and ruins all my ideeeas. An I spose coffinmaker will blame it all on me standin on me head to load or somethin.........

for the technically minded (like perfesser) I have been absolutely unable to make graphite burn ina gun barrel - so I assumed (very unscientific to asume anything but I did it anyway) ..assumed that said graphite glazing slowed the burn and added more poop to what was already in the barrel 

just tryin to help ole Bunk wid his ruckus raisin campaign

missin the action but a thousand miles away at work so difficulter than normal to participate

Offline Capt Quirk

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2019, 09:38:44 am »
My doctor says my barrel is just fine, no extra poop... Good diet, I suppose. Well, aside from the occasional donut. Going back up to Athens this weekend, and I hear Krystal's has all you can eat burgers n fries for $5.99. If'n you want, I could report back on the condition of my barrel after...  ::)

Offline greyhawk

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2019, 05:34:02 pm »
My doctor says my barrel is just fine, no extra poop... Good diet, I suppose. Well, aside from the occasional donut. Going back up to Athens this weekend, and I hear Krystal's has all you can eat burgers n fries for $5.99. If'n you want, I could report back on the condition of my barrel after...  ::)

yeah but you been eatin them pretty coloured donuts ----its the black ones does the damage to ya barrel

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2019, 02:58:53 am »
Ah Capt, glad to hear your barrels are well oiled... would that be Athens GA, Athens Montana, or Athens Greece?
I can only imagine the all you can eat deal would just slide on thru.....

who told ya glazed wuz better - I bin shootin unglazed fer 25 years - did it cuz I reckoned it wuz better - now along comes the nutty perfesser and ruins all my ideeeas. An I spose coffinmaker will blame it all on me standin on me head to load or somethin.........

for the technically minded (like perfesser) I have been absolutely unable to make graphite burn ina gun barrel - so I assumed (very unscientific to asume anything but I did it anyway) ..assumed that said graphite glazing slowed the burn and added more poop to what was already in the barrel 

just tryin to help ole Bunk wid his ruckus raisin campaign

missin the action but a thousand miles away at work so difficulter than normal to participate

Ah yes, on the topic  of razing the devil , a couple of saints were over in the corner praying up a storm and got him nearly 6 feet off the ground...
Oh raising a ruckus....

Well I disremember a long conservation conversation several Lustrum ago on the now defunct Open Range site, where All The Finest Minds were socking their powder to remove excess pencil lead graphite, and I do recall how magnificintly shinyand pretty thoseBP grains were, and how amazingly dirty those gym sock came out.

What I don't remember is how it affected the shooting, if at all!

Then this aftermorning I went back researching my oid notes, links, parchments and clay tablets to discern the old Balloon Head whys and wherefores...

And Lo  and Behold there in my links is our own Pettifogger holding forth on the pros and cons, and as long as the recalcitrant  brass casing did not split
and the rim works as designed, it does not matter a wit for our purposes.... Except for when PJ Hardtack related that a fellow split one due to overuse and spew nasty hot gasses and etc all over his own face....

Whereupon I fell down the WunderLand Rabbitt Hole of the history and hows and whys of cartridge devolpment, found this page with pretty pichers
and lots of interesting  long winded historicity and many wordiness as long as your truly - which also shows how the rims are sloped, and can bulge "not flat", and other unhappiness


https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?787-Word-of-caution-about-balloon-head-cases


which then led me to the history of copper cases with riveted rims and coiled copper sidewalls, for Bob's sake!

but then I had to pay bills, wash and move the newly dead freezer out of the garqage, order some used esoteric cooking and  Japanese books from my favorite bookstore in Portlandia (which is having a sale with free shipping) , investigate where this blasted nose choking smoke is coming from ( phoenix area - seems SE arizona  is on fire again) and then figure out WTF a Trash Panda is and why it would go to Rocket City....

and then I wonder where my day goes and why I can't seem to get anything accomplished...

yhs
prof marvel

PS Mrs Marvel says "Trash Pandas Are CUTE!"
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 03:39:37 pm by Professor Marvel »
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Offline greyhawk

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2019, 07:38:12 am »
Ah Capt, glad to hear your barrels are well oiled... would that be Athens GA, Athens Montana, or Athens Greece?
I can only imagine the all you can eat deal would just slide on thru.....

Ah yes, on the topic  of razing the devil , a couple of saints were over in the corner praying up a storm and got him nearly 6 feet off the ground...
Oh raising a ruckus....

Well I disremember a long conservation conversation several Lustrum ago on the now defunct Open Range site, where All The Finest Minds were socking their powder to remove excess pencil lead graphite, and I do recall how magnificintly shinyand pretty thoseBP grains were, and how amazingly dirty those gym sock came out.

What I don't remember is how it affected the shooting, if at all!

Then this aftermorning I went back researching my oid notes, links, parchments and clay tablets to discern the old Balloon Head whys and wherefores...

And Lo  and Behold there in my links is our own Pettifogger holding forth on the pros and cons, and as long as the recalcitrant  brass casing did not split
and the rim works as designed, it does not matter a wit for our purposes.... Except for when PJ Hardtack related that a fellow split one due to overuse and spew nasty hot gasses and etc all over his own face....

Whereupon I fell down the WunderLand Rabbitt Hole of the history and hows and whys of cartridge devolpment, found this page with pretty pichers
and lots of interesting  long winded historicity and many wordiness as long as your truly - which also shows how the rims are sloped, and can bulge "not flat", and other unhappiness


which then led me to the history of copper cases with riveted rims and paper sidewalls, for Bob's sake!

but then I had to pay bills, wash and move the newly dead freezer out of the garqage, order some used esoteric cooking and  Japanese books from my favorite bookstore in Portlandia (which is having a sale with free shipping) , investigate where this blasted nose choking smoke is coming from ( phoenix area - seems SE arizona  is on fire again) and then figure out WTF a Trash Panda is and why it would go to Rocket City....

and then I wonder where my day goes and why I can't seem to get anything accomplished...

yhs
prof marvel

PS Mrs Marvel says "Trash Pandas Are CUTE!"

Downunder we got drop bears - but what is this trash panda feller ??????

Offline Capt Quirk

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2019, 10:29:29 am »
Why Professor, that be Athens Gawgia. I doubt they have Krystals in Greece, but I could get some authentic Gyros there.

@Greyhawk, a Trash Panda usually refers to Raccoon, but also to several of my muttly minions.

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2019, 03:55:10 pm »
Thanks Capt

Apparently the Rocket City Trash Pandas are a minor league baseball team originally out of Huntsville Alabama, home to the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center ....

https://www.milb.com/rocket-city

Here are some trash panda photos.

https://images.app.goo.gl/RDfEY4c6Ni4jrpcF7

https://images.app.goo.gl/S9badCP63sX26XDD7

https://images.app.goo.gl/Vp2Wxjhy9WF4Jt8P7
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 01:02:43 am by Professor Marvel »
Your Humble Servant
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Offline Capt Quirk

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2019, 08:11:56 pm »
There used to be a show called Rocket City Rednecks. A retired NASA engineer and his redneck brother's built all sorts of stuff. Some useful, mostly stupid.

Offline Galloway

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2019, 09:10:17 am »
As for controversy ive always wondered why every s&w m&p or model 10 ive ever fired hit 1'' high at 25 yards, but if you even begin to suggest uberti regulate their revolvers to hit poa you'll be screamed at by experts who claim everyone holds a revolver different and such a feat could never be accomplished and is impossible even to consider.

Offline Bunk Stagnerg

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Re: I am trying
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2019, 11:06:30 am »
All of my snubby C&B revolvers are Pietta and all shoot on or close to POA at CAS distances. I do have to hold a bit different to hit a 12" square at 25 yards with them including the Capt. Schaeffer guns. They are not made for that range, but you never know when that might come in handy.
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Bunk