Author Topic: Antique mall trapdoor  (Read 1231 times)

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3612
Antique mall trapdoor
« on: June 11, 2019, 09:26:43 pm »
Found this at an antique mall, half buried under a pile of society swords.  When the lady pulled it off the shelf for me and I got my first good look at it, the first thing that popped into my head was "Jaeger".  My bore light showed a nice shiny barrel with sharp rifling

It's mostly M1884, serial number puts it in the 1st quarter of 1888.  An M1879 rifle sight, and the front sight appears to be hammered out of an old (wheat or earlier) penny.  An old conversion, but well done really,  probably started as a rifle with a bent barrel, someone did a lot of work to the stock to get everything to fit.  Barrel is 20" from breech to muzzle.  The sights appear dead on at 50 yards so far.  Trigger is good, 5 lbs or so with just a touch of creep.  A couple of minor cracks, in non load bearing areas.

Waite and Ernst have pictures of at least 3 experimental carbines that look a LOT like this, I was surprised to find.  For $300 (!) A fun walking around rifle.  It handles really well, with the balance point right beneath the block hinge.  Very lively in the hands, the longer stock feeling better in the forehand as it shoulders.

Maybe someday I'll take it down and make a heavy barrel target rifle with it . . .
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Sagebrush Burns

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 625
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2019, 10:45:47 pm »
Well, didja buy it?!

Online Silver Creek Slim

  • Buckaroo
  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 18158
  • NCOWS #: 2329
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2019, 07:16:16 am »
Very nice.

Slim
NCOWS 2329, WartHog, SCORRS, SBSS, BHR, GAF, RBCS, Dirty RATS, BTBM, IPSAC, Cosie-in-training
I love the smell of Black Powder in the morning!

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3612
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2019, 09:50:31 am »
Yes, I bought it!
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Jake C

  • Department of the Atlantic, GAF # 834
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 572
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2019, 12:59:57 pm »
That's a fun rifle, I'm jealous of you Drydock! I hope it treats you well.  ;D
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 01:23:38 pm by Jake C »
Win with ability, not with numbers.- Alexander Suvorov, Russian Field Marshal, 1729-1800

Offline Sagebrush Burns

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 625
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2019, 10:57:13 pm »
Hope it shoots as good as it looks!  That one has some serious panache!

Offline Cowolf

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2019, 04:43:13 pm »
an elegant weapon for a more civilized age

Offline River City John

  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3501
  • Mr. & Mrs. John Covert
    • River City JAC
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2019, 04:46:06 pm »
And it would make a well balanced club as a last resort . . .
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275
http://www.cascity.com/posseprofiles/River_City_John

Offline smoke

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 302
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2019, 07:21:06 am »
That is cool :D!  I would have bought it in a heartbeat at the price.

I think S&S stocks a repro of one of the experimental stock.  I thought it would be cool to clone one. 
GAF#379

Offline Dusty Tagalon

  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 558
  • SASS 32291, NCOWS L170, GAF 74
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2019, 08:20:22 pm »
Another thought, grappling hook gun?
Dusty

Offline 1961MJS

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 275
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2019, 06:31:53 pm »
Hi

No reason to think it isn't experimental, but if memory serves a lot of the old pirate flintlock pistols of the 1920's on were cut down Trapdoors. 

http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=8695,DATABASE=objects

Dang found it purdy easy.  Maybe someone in Hollywood cut them down for other purposes.

Later
Mike
GAF #797
Brevet Lieutenant Colonel
Division of Oklahoma

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3612
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2019, 08:23:20 pm »
Oh, it is clearly NOT an experimental! (I could only wish!) It is clearly a home made cut down rifle, I would guess done sometime before WW2.  But it does resemble (By accident!) a couple of Springfield experimental carbines pictured on page 156 of Waite and Ernst's "Trapdoor Springfield". 

RCJ, yeppur, it makes a dandy club!  I can spin it pretty good too!
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline 1961MJS

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 275
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2019, 10:27:20 pm »
Oh, it is clearly NOT an experimental! (I could only wish!) It is clearly a home made cut down rifle, I would guess done sometime before WW2.  But it does resemble (By accident!) a couple of Springfield experimental carbines pictured on page 156 of Waite and Ernst's "Trapdoor Springfield". 

RCJ, yeppur, it makes a dandy club!  I can spin it pretty good too!

spin, ooh no, Drydock Wayne.
Mike
GAF #797
Brevet Lieutenant Colonel
Division of Oklahoma

Offline Sagebrush Burns

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 625
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2019, 11:08:45 pm »
Looked at the pics again - first time I've ever seen a Manlicher stocked trap-door!

Offline Dusty Tagalon

  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 558
  • SASS 32291, NCOWS L170, GAF 74
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2019, 11:31:10 pm »
Not Manicler, forward band has groove in front for keeper, so definitely cut.
Dusty

Offline Pitspitr

  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4005
  • 308 214-0082 45551 Rd 816, Sargent NE 68874 USA
    • Grand Army of the Frontier
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2019, 06:36:25 am »
I have owned 2 Trapdoors that had barrels bent at the front barrel band. (Bent during use as a spade with the trowel bayonet attached...that's my story and I'm sticking to it!)

Maybe the pervious owner thought it would be easier to cut the barrel off behind the bend than to straighten it?
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
(Bvt.)Brigadier General Commanding,
Grand Army of the Frontier
BC/IT, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, CC, SoM
NRA CRSO, RVWA IIT2; SASS ROI, ROII;
NRA Patron Life; AZSA Life; NCOWS Life

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3612
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2019, 05:27:05 pm »
That would be my guess.  This is very much a bitsa rifle:  Barrel, receiver and block are 1884. Serial # to 1888.  I suspect but cannot prove that the lock is also off the same rifle.  The stock cartouche is long gone, but the fit would indicate it belongs with this action.  The sights are not correct though, and the lock bolts are M1868 or earlier!  The Lower barrel band is a mystery, the upper band probably 1884. 

The lower band is intriguing:  the only split lower bands I can find on Trapdoors are on experimentals.  don't believe this is, but where did it come from?  Is it a Sharps mid band, a civilian aftermarket band?  We'll never know.  But it does make me determined to replace the upper band with a plain one, then fit a sling swivel in the butt, to fully duplicate the experimental carbine shown by Waite and Ernst.  ( I think.  The pictures are shaved so you cannot actually see a swivel on the butt, but why have a split lower sling band?) 

That is the one nice thing about a cut down like this:  You can play with it.  I'll bring it along.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 05:29:54 pm by Drydock »
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline smoke

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 302
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2019, 08:41:55 pm »
I think you need to call that one an "Engineer's Carbine"
GAF#379

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3612
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2019, 08:56:07 pm »
It was pointed out to me at the Muster that the stock is of the early "Long Wristed" pattern.  An interesting collection of parts.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Jake C

  • Department of the Atlantic, GAF # 834
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 572
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2019, 11:39:33 am »
I can't get over how cool this is. My Trapdoor had the stock bubba'd a bit, and a part of me really wants to make it into this. I won't do it, but I'm tempted to.
Win with ability, not with numbers.- Alexander Suvorov, Russian Field Marshal, 1729-1800

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3612
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2019, 12:56:03 pm »
One of the guys at the Muster borrowed it when his Pedersoli broke.  Had a lot of fun with it.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3612
Re: Antique mall trapdoor
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2019, 06:12:26 pm »
I used it at our local Cowboy/GAF match, paired with an 1851 Conversion revolver, dressed in USN whites, calling it (as suggested above) my "line throwing gun".  Great fun!  And a clean match.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .