Author Topic: Possible to contact Gary Granger? Edit: Earp Buntline, Skeleton Stock & Case  (Read 1557 times)

Offline LSB Auctions

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments
We came across a Buntline special with stock and presenation case, SN: EARP1 and can't find any information about it. It has a USFA barrel (no PT.). Our research indicates that Mr. Granger is the man to talk to. Is it possible or okay to contact him? Rumor is he sometimes shows up here.

Thanks!

I tried to upload some photos, but I can't seem to size them smaller than 400KB  :-\

Edited title for clarity. Looks like we'll be talking about the gun more in this thread!  ;D
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 05:54:27 pm by LSB Auctions »

Offline Buckaroo Lou

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 226
Re: Possible to contact Gary Granger?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2019, 12:59:05 pm »
Gary Granger would probably know. Can you post a link that would show photos? There are other folks on this forum that are pretty good at identifying USFA revolvers if they can see quality photos.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 01:01:15 pm by Buckaroo Lou »
A man's true measure is found not in what he says but in what he does.


Offline Professor Marvel

  • purveyor of useless items to the gentry
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2169
  • learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it
Re: Possible to contact Gary Granger?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2019, 08:55:31 pm »
We came across a Buntline special with stock and presenation case, SN: EARP1 and can't find any information about it. It has a USFA barrel (no PT.). Our research indicates that Mr. Granger is the man to talk to. Is it possible or okay to contact him? Rumor is he sometimes shows up here.

Thanks!

I tried to upload some photos, but I can't seem to size them smaller than 400KB  :-\


Hello LSB

Thanks for the photos. The specialists will probably ask for certain specific views. In the meantime,
Your revolver looks to my (less educated) eye like one of the Turnbull finished USFA 10 inch buntlines,
which were provided without a stock.

I seem to recall (but I have been mistaken) that the USFA sets which included the skeleton stock were all 16 inch barreled buntlines.

Please do measure the barrel, and note that in the USA you get into trouble putting a stock on a pistol with a barrel less than 16 inches...

Yhs
Prof Marvel
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of
Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
Available by Appointment for Lectures on Any Topic

Offline LSB Auctions

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments
Re: Possible to contact Gary Granger?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2019, 10:33:55 pm »

Hello LSB

Thanks for the photos. The specialists will probably ask for certain specific views. In the meantime,
Your revolver looks to my (less educated) eye like one of the Turnbull finished USFA 10 inch buntlines,
which were provided without a stock.

I seem to recall (but I have been mistaken) that the USFA sets which included the skeleton stock were all 16 inch barreled buntlines.

Please do measure the barrel, and note that in the USA you get into trouble putting a stock on a pistol with a barrel less than 16 inches...

Yhs
Prof Marvel

Finally got home to my PC which is making the uploads much easier. I'll get it in front of me tomorrow to measure the barrel, but I do remember it was less than 16". I can't remember if it was 10" or 12". I'm there with you on the stock issue. It won't be installed, though I thought it interesting that it would come with both the stock (serialized to the gun) and the replacement mounting screw for the stock when it would not be legal to install.

Here are a few more photos:

http://tinypic.com/r/6td9ol/9

http://tinypic.com/r/2yv8op1/9

http://tinypic.com/r/2it5shz/9

http://tinypic.com/r/210hjtd/9

http://tinypic.com/r/2hrpo4l/9

ETA: forgot the hammer knurling

http://tinypic.com/r/23uyash/9
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 10:46:09 pm by LSB Auctions »

Offline Professor Marvel

  • purveyor of useless items to the gentry
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2169
  • learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it
Re: Possible to contact Gary Granger?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2019, 02:36:45 am »
Thanks for the additional photos, esp the hammer knurling, and the prior foto showing the concave firing pin.

I can tell you that USFA would have shipped in a standard ( longer) black cardboard box as opposed to the wood case, but I cannot speak for Turnbull .
I hope Gary or another expert shows up soon, the suspense is killing me LOL .

You might try contacting Turnbull at their website - https://www.turnbullrestoration.com/contact/

and here is a foto of one of their "sold out" buntlines from
https://www.turnbullrestoration.com/gun/turnbull-buntline/



yhs
profmarvel

 
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of
Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
Available by Appointment for Lectures on Any Topic

Offline LSB Auctions

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments
Re: Possible to contact Gary Granger?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2019, 11:19:54 am »
Alright, just got back into the shop. The barrel is 10" nominal, 10 1/8" actual.

I'll try contacting Turnbull. What about the serial number? Did Turnbull or USFA offer custom sns? Was there a run of Wyatt Earp guns? I would have just written it up as a USFA buntline, but the serial number and presentation case got me wanting to look into it further.

Offline Professor Marvel

  • purveyor of useless items to the gentry
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2169
  • learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it
Re: Possible to contact Gary Granger?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2019, 05:06:38 pm »
Alright, just got back into the shop. The barrel is 10" nominal, 10 1/8" actual.

I'll try contacting Turnbull. What about the serial number? Did Turnbull or USFA offer custom sns?

Regarding serial numbers, custom serial numbers was a thing USFA was willing to do,
and "I think " Turnbull did as well ( since Turnbull is technically a "manufacturor" they can!) and as long as they are unique, the gov't doesn't really care ...

For example, this photo from a gunbroker auction shows 2 USFA rodeos with "special" serial numbers.


Not being an expert, I would have expected the Earp serial number from USFA to be more perfectly lined up and , well, prettier...



but what do I know, after perusing several hundred  USFA serial number images on the web, I guess it all depends...

-----
Quote
Was there a run of Wyatt Earp guns? I would have just written it up as a USFA buntline, but the serial number and presentation case got me wanting to look into it further.
--
yes there were a number of buntlines made with those special flipup sights.
here is a discussion of one special order from  Turnbull's
http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/11694/44-special-usfa-buntline

and we can see  from auction sales there was a run of USFA 16" bunltines with shoulder stock and cardboard box

https://www.gunsamerica.com/926236344/USFA-Buntline-Special-45-Colt-16-inch-shoulder-stock-cased-box-and-papers.htm


U.S. Firearms (circa 1997) copy of Colt's Buntline Special revolver. This blued and case-hardened .45 caliber Single Action has a 16-inch barrel, correct adjustable flip-up rear sight and gas escape hole as per originals. Having only been fired approximately 20 times by the original owner, it remains in nearly pristine condition other than a scratch in the bottom of the grip frame where the stock attach screw makes contact. Included is the detachable shoulder stock, oil bottle and the original cardboard box with all paperwork and packing material. 


and here
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11939379_usfa-colt-buntline-45-shoulder-stock-in-box-ffl

--------

However, your wood case, brass plate, and skeleton stock do not appear original to the gun. The wood case looks like it was made for a 16" barrel.
and nobody in the US would pair the stock with a 10" barrel pistol.

The front and rear sights show it's the real deal, though, so it is most likely that the  original owner got a USFA or Turnabull 10" buntline
revolver and put together the rest. Usually, Turnbulls have the Turnbull name on the barrel, tho, unless they did it for USFA....

without provenance or doco, it is really hard to know the whole story.

And , of course, "The Antiques Road Show" and "Pawn Stars" have taught us that
"dead great grandpa's sworn story" doesn't buy much.
 
just for fun here is a pdf of the old 2007 catalogue (but it doesn't show the buntlines)

http://www.louiscandell.com/pdf/fire/2007_usfa_catalog.pdf

For basic research this is a great page for "what is it"
http://pistolsmith.blogspot.com/2015/05/uberti-or-usfa-or-parts-gun.html?m=1

This is fun, but I hope Gary shows up...

yhs
prof marvel
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 05:27:26 pm by Professor Marvel »
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of
Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
Available by Appointment for Lectures on Any Topic

Offline LSB Auctions

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments
Re: Possible to contact Gary Granger?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2019, 05:50:09 pm »
Regarding serial numbers, custom serial numbers was a thing USFA was willing to do,
and "I think " Turnbull did as well ( since Turnbull is technically a "manufacturor" they can!) and as long as they are unique, the gov't doesn't really care ...

Not being an expert, I would have expected the Earp serial number from USFA to be more perfectly lined up and , well, prettier...

However, your wood case, brass plate, and skeleton stock do not appear original to the gun. The wood case looks like it was made for a 16" barrel.
and nobody in the US would pair the stock with a 10" barrel pistol.

The front and rear sights show it's the real deal, though, so it is most likely that the  original owner got a USFA or Turnabull 10" buntline
revolver and put together the rest. Usually, Turnbulls have the Turnbull name on the barrel, tho, unless they did it for USFA....

without provenance or doco, it is really hard to know the whole story.
It's good to know that the serial numbers could be custom ordered. I can't wait to hear back from Turnbull as that would confirm or eliminate one possibility. I understand the thought about the legality of the skeleton stock. The serial number could have been added after-market but, as you noted, with the less than perfect markings on the rest of the gun, it's hard to know one way or another if it originally matched or was force-matched.


And , of course, "The Antiques Road Show" and "Pawn Stars" have taught us that
"dead great grandpa's sworn story" doesn't buy much.
Absolutely. That's why we're coming here. We try to make sure we don't stretch the truth or represent an item as something that it isn't, but this one really threw us for a loop. Anything can be faked, but we usually see fakes on something where the value is worth faking. We don't know if this is something worth faking, something someone made for themselves, or something that's the real deal and just not well documented.
 

For basic research this is a great page for "what is it"
http://pistolsmith.blogspot.com/2015/05/uberti-or-usfa-or-parts-gun.html?m=1

I've seen similar information, that's what let me know which photos to take. It sure seems like this has some Uberti parts which is, well, it's what it is. Still, I'd like to know if this was a USFA gun or post-market customized or even Turnbull. It's interesting, in any case.

This is fun, but I hope Gary shows up...

yhs
prof marvel

Same! I can't wait to find out what this is. We've seen some cool USFAs, but most of them were clearly what they were. This one is a fun mystery.

Offline GaryG

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 187
I've been looking this for awhile.  At first glance it doesn't look like a USFA although the roll mark says USFA.  I think Turnbull has a USFA roll mark.  It's a Uberti frame and hammer.  All the buntlines USFA built were built on Uberti frames.  When the company closed, there were still some buntline frames and they were sold to2 different companies.  The cylinder is not Uberti.  The grip with the 591 production number looks like what USFA would do.  Is this a 45 and could you post a picture of the caliber marking on the barrel? 

I polled another x employer and we don't remember an EARP 1 serial number.  The 1 looks like a USFA stamping but the EARP doesn't look like any of the fonts we had.  Normally a 10" barrel would have a slightly higher standard front sight not the dovetail front sight.  To us it seems odd to put a flip up rear sight with the 10" barrel.  The box looks legit (there were several at the company when it closed) but none of us remember the brass plaque. 

The bottom line is we not sure what it is or where it came from.  It could be all USFA.  One more thing, USFA only did the Buntlines in 45 colt with a few 44-40s.  Most were color cased but there re a few nickel ones out there.    I think all I've done is muddy the water a lot more.

Offline Professor Marvel

  • purveyor of useless items to the gentry
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2169
  • learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it
OH GARY, THANKS!!!!

actually I think you are adding clarity.
this may well be a "leftovers" gun.


for ease of viewing, when the experts get here ( they are all probably out shooting, wish I was )
here are the OP's fotos. Please note, I cannot see an extended hammer screw that would engage the stock, sooooo ....

The brass plate


pistol in a lined wood case


pistol and stock ser #'s


pistol backside frame # "591" and gripstrap screwholes ... and 3rd hole?


one piece grip, gripframes, and matching "591" numbers


 
"EARP1" serial number details


Top Barrel "USFA" legend


Right side of frame, open gate, concave firing pin, flip-up rear sight


dovetail front sight


flip-up rear sight

rear cylinder marked " E  A  R  P  1"


bottom of gripframe marked EARP1 slightly uneven


hammer knurling


yhs
prof marvel
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of
Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
Available by Appointment for Lectures on Any Topic

Offline GaryG

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 187
If you're talking about the cutout on the bottom of the backstrap to engage the shoulder stock, I don't see it either.

Offline GaryG

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 187
Got a little bit ahead of myself.  Prof, you?re correct.  No shoulder stock hammer screw.  To many mistakes to qualify it as a buntline.

Offline LSB Auctions

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments
THE MAN HIMSELF!

Thanks for your reply. The mounting screw for the stock is included, but not installed. The revolver is chambered for .45, but I'll have to take another photo when I get in tomorrow so you can see the markings.

It's also good to know that all USFA buntlines were Uberti frames. I hadn't run across that tidbit in my research.

Thank you so much for your help. We'd always like it to be a factory one-of-a-kind, super-rare, ultra-collectible piece, but it's just as good to know it isn't and be able to be honest about it.

I'll get another couple photos up tomorrow.

Thanks, again!

ETA: in the photo of the full cased set with the lid open, you can see the screw against the bottom arm of the skeleton stock.

Offline Professor Marvel

  • purveyor of useless items to the gentry
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2169
  • learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it
Ah, I do see the uninstalled extended hammer screw in the box, next to the skeleton stock.



Is that 3rd hole in the back of the frame for replacing the hand leaf srping  with a coil spring?

.... I think Turnbull has a USFA roll mark. 

....It's a Uberti frame and hammer. 

...Normally a 10" barrel would have a slightly higher standard front sight not the dovetail front sight. 
To us it seems odd to put a flip up rear sight with the 10" barrel.  The box looks legit (there were several at the company when it closed) but none of us remember the brass plaque. 


Gary, except for the funky serial number lettering, his pistol looks a lot (to me)  like the Turnbull seen here (on Turnbull's site), what do you think?



yhs
prf mvl
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of
Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
Available by Appointment for Lectures on Any Topic

Offline LSB Auctions

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments
As it turns out, the barrel is not caliber marked, but the barrel and cylinder are definitely for .45 Colt. Here's photos of the lack of caliber marking and the stock screw:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=10rihcy&s=9#.XP1HVIhKiUk

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=aokkrn&s=9#.XP1HN4hKiUk

Offline GaryG

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 187
The. bottom of the back strap should have a hollowed out are for the ?hook? on the stock to attach to. If not, the wrong blackstrap was used on this gun. 

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5560

Perfesser M,

Yes.  That extra hole in the back of the frame above the hole for the backstrap attachment screw, is a bore for Spring and Plunger for the hand.  It also appears to be threaded for the "Dreaded" tiny retention screw favored by Uberti. 

I realize my contribution doesn't really add to the discussion at hand but I thought I might add just a tiny tidbit of information.  Sticking my toe inna water so to speak    ::)

Offline Buckaroo Lou

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 226
From reading all the previous posts it sounds to me as though this might very well be a revolver pieced together by left over parts after USFA's demise by someone other than USFA or I think even Turnbull. I can't imagine either of them not building the gun correctly and selling it as a representation of their quality. It just appears to me there are too many discrepancies for it to have been build by either of them but I suppose I could be wrong.
A man's true measure is found not in what he says but in what he does.

Offline LSB Auctions

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments
UPDATE!

Just heard back from Turnbull. They say they case colored and charcoal blued the gun in 12/99, but that the manufacture was USFA, they only did the finish. Mr. Granger, if you're still following the thread, does this sound right? Maybe someone bought it, altered it, then sent it to Turnbull for finish?

Offline Superdave269

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Lots of great information here. I found this Buntline on GB and was pointed here when I started asking questions to a very knowledgeable USFA & Colt SAA collector. I knew it was finished by Turnbull but the 10 " barrel still has me wondering especially since the case is made for a longer barrel....

Offline Pangaea

  • Very Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 98
The seller on GB stated, which is true, that putting a stock on this pistol would create an "short barreled rifle", subject to the NFA Act of 1934.