Author Topic: Did they reload?  (Read 12888 times)

Offline Delmonico

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2019, 10:33:45 pm »
Probably bought a box every couple years or so.

In a Andy Adam's book Log of a Cowboy, he tells about them spotting a bear and them all gathering their guns and many having to borrow ammo to load  up with.

The average cowboy shot very little and of course didn't reload.

I have read a lot of books with first hand accounts of life in the era and the only accounts of anyone reloading ammo who weren't market hunters of some type was the period the army made companies reload practice ammo, a dismal failure also. 

The other was Maria Sandoz's accounts in her book Old Jules, of her dad reloading ammo.

Very unusual, but Jules Sandoz practiced a lot, something few had the time or money for.



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Offline Chance

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2019, 11:43:39 am »
If reloading wasn't common, why were there so many reloading tools available and who bought them?

Chance

Offline Delmonico

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2019, 03:34:38 pm »
Many not common tools survive because they were durable and expensive.

I've seen a lot of amputation sets for sale, don't think that means a lot of people bought and used them.

If you can find the information that says a lot of people owned guns and reloaded, then we would be glad to see it.
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Offline Rye Miles

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2019, 07:37:38 pm »
Probably bought a box every couple years or so.

In a Andy Adam's book Log of a Cowboy, he tells about them spotting a bear and them all gathering their guns and many having to borrow ammo to load  up with.

The average cowboy shot very little and of course didn't reload.

I have read a lot of books with first hand accounts of life in the era and the only accounts of anyone reloading ammo who weren't market hunters of some type was the period the army made companies reload practice ammo, a dismal failure also. 

The other was Maria Sandoz's accounts in her book Old Jules, of her dad reloading ammo.

Very unusual, but Jules Sandoz practiced a lot, something few had the time or money for.

The cowboys didn't shoot much I agree but I'm sure the lawman and bad guys bought more than a box in a couple years. Probably more like a box a month I would guess and maybe more. The bad guys probably had more money and could afford to buy or even steal more ammo than that. ;D
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2019, 09:01:26 pm »
The cowboys didn't shoot much I agree but I'm sure the lawman and bad guys bought more than a box in a couple years. Probably more like a box a month I would guess and maybe more. The bad guys probably had more money and could afford to buy or even steal more ammo than that. ;D

Guessing ain't proof, documentation is proof and I've spend a lot of  hours researching in and I am convinced that the only people who did reloading were almost all market hunters of some form and Target shooters, which was a big money sport in both prizes and being able to afford the equipment. 

But if you have documentation that I haven't seen, I'm open minded enough to change.😉
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Offline Rye Miles

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2019, 07:36:56 am »
Guessing ain't proof, documentation is proof and I've spend a lot of  hours researching in and I am convinced that the only people who did reloading were almost all market hunters of some form and Target shooters, which was a big money sport in both prizes and being able to afford the equipment. 

But if you have documentation that I haven't seen, I'm open minded enough to change.😉

I have no documentation, I'm just using common sense. Lawman and outlaws had more money than the average person and I assume they had more ammo too! Just MHO
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Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2019, 01:43:42 am »
I have no documentation, I'm just using common sense. Lawman and outlaws had more money than the average person and I assume they had more ammo too! Just MHO

Greetings My Good Monsieur Miles -

Firstly I have to point out that if a lawman had more spendable income, he also had more responsibilities and bills... like a house and family,
"office expenses" and the fact that many had to supply their own equipment, horses, tack, guns and ammunition at their own expense ... and some even had to
feed prisoners out of their own pocket! Thus trying to discern what any one fellow would spend his money on back then is literally a guessing game.

Secondly, With all respect, "common sense" is ok for casual chat in a modern setting, but here we are in the CAS City Historical Society Subforum....

To dicsuss History seriously, We  deal in provable facts, otherwise we are no better than the Stoopid Movies who throw actual history to wind for the sake of a story.

so, for Actual History, unfortunately, documentation and confirmed provenance  are absolute requirements.

Otherwise we are merely speculating based upon our moderns ways and thoughts , not very different form "blowing smoke".
It's no different than the boys who use 2 part epoxy for historically accurate repairs, claiming "if they had it they woulda used it"

But "they didn't have it" , they used hide glue.

Speculation, Assumption, and attributing "modern thought" to people in the distant past have led many a scholar down the garden path
to being Utterly and Embarasingly Wrong.... :-)

A stunning example is the utter lack of basic hygiene. ACTUAL SURGEONS wore the same stiff and bloody leather aprons without cleaning
every time they cut open a patient, or performed amputations. They operated without even washing their hands and actually prided themselves
on how bloody their surgical apron was. It was not until ~1870 that Dr Joseph Lister ( yes, the Listerene guy) proved over and over that
washing hands, instrumants, and the patient's wounds in diluted carbolic acid virtually stopped all infections.

Even in 1873 the  the medical journal The Lancet warned the entire medical profession against his progressive ideas, and he was openly
mocked as late as 1890.

It would be "common sense" from our perspective that any doctor "ought to have" at least washed his hands.... But documentation shows us
that none of them did!

No disrespect intended, merely attempting to shed some light on the matter.

So without any sunstantiated doco, no one can really say if a lawman reloaded or bought ammuntion or how much he shot or practised.

We DO Know that back in Washington the Generals considered live fire practice (and repating firearms) a waste of money and proveded little
funds for it.  how do we know this?

from  https://armyhistory.org/the-springfield-model-1873-rifle/
" most soldiers in the decades following the Civil War did not receive any significant marksmanship training.  Most soldiers were only given ten cartridges a month with which to practice, and some units did not even receive that much.  In 1877, Lieutenant Stephen Mills stated that ?target practice was practically unknown.  I think the allowance of ammunition was twenty rounds a year.?  By 1878, the state of marksmanship training had become so bad that the Department of the Pacific ordered .58 caliber muzzle-loading rifle-muskets to be taken out of storage so that troops could practice shooting."

and

from "The U.S. Army in the West, 1870-1880: Uniforms, Weapons, and Equipment  By Douglas C. McChristian"
"The Springfield breechloader's power, accuracy, and sustained rate of fire made it an effective weapon for such conditions.
Of course, this was based on the premise that the troops would be trained as capable combat marksmen. In reality, most soldiers
serving in the 1870's were not good marksmen because of the lack of formal training and because of the severe restrictions placed
on the amount of ammunition used for target practice. "

Today, "Common Sense" would make it obvious that a soldier needed
1) an ammunition allotment
2) training
3) time for practice

Back Then the thinking was that all the above was a waste of money.

We DO know that there were pistol and rifle shooting clubs back east and in California, we have their records and newspaper stories.
We DO know that market hunters reloaded and engaged in casual competition from the news paper account and bills and recipets.
We don't know "how much" the average guy or Law Enforcement type practiced

The New York City police Department did not have mandatory pistol practice until 1895 when Teddy Roosevelt took over
           see http://nychistory.blogspot.com/2007/02/theodore-roosevelt-and-nyc.html

BTW over here
https://libraryguides.missouri.edu/pricesandwages/1880-1889

is the single best documented source of prices and wages I have ever found. Research Librarians are your Friends! Use Them Wisely!

I will do some esoteric looking and see if I can find anything useful to contribute

yhs
prof marvel
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Offline Rye Miles

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2019, 07:59:20 am »
Greetings My Good Monsieur Miles -

Firstly I have to point out that if a lawman had more spendable income, he also had more responsibilities and bills... like a house and family,
"office expenses" and the fact that many had to supply their own equipment, horses, tack, guns and ammunition at their own expense ... and some even had to
feed prisoners out of their own pocket! Thus trying to discern what any one fellow would spend his money on back then is literally a guessing game.

Secondly, With all respect, "common sense" is ok for casual chat in a modern setting, but here we are in the CAS City Historical Society Subforum....

To dicsuss History seriously, We  deal in provable facts, otherwise we are no better than the Stoopid Movies who throw actual history to wind for the sake of a story.

so, for Actual History, unfortunately, documentation and confirmed provenance  are absolute requirements.

Otherwise we are merely speculating based upon our moderns ways and thoughts , not very different form "blowing smoke".
It's no different than the boys who use 2 part epoxy for historically accurate repairs, claiming "if they had it they woulda used it"

But "they didn't have it" , they used hide glue.

Speculation, Assumption, and attributing "modern thought" to people in the distant past have led many a scholar down the garden path
to being Utterly and Embarasingly Wrong.... :-)

A stunning example is the utter lack of basic hygiene. ACTUAL SURGEONS wore the same stiff and bloody leather aprons without cleaning
every time they cut open a patient, or performed amputations. They operated without even washing their hands and actually prided themselves
on how bloody their surgical apron was. It was not until ~1870 that Dr Joseph Lister ( yes, the Listerene guy) proved over and over that
washing hands, instrumants, and the patient's wounds in diluted carbolic acid virtually stopped all infections.

Even in 1873 the  the medical journal The Lancet warned the entire medical profession against his progressive ideas, and he was openly
mocked as late as 1890.

It would be "common sense" from our perspective that any doctor "ought to have" at least washed his hands.... But documentation shows us
that none of them did!

No disrespect intended, merely attempting to shed some light on the matter.

So without any sunstantiated doco, no one can really say if a lawman reloaded or bought ammuntion or how much he shot or practised.

We DO Know that back in Washington the Generals considered live fire practice (and repating firearms) a waste of money and proveded little
funds for it.  how do we know this?

from  https://armyhistory.org/the-springfield-model-1873-rifle/
" most soldiers in the decades following the Civil War did not receive any significant marksmanship training.  Most soldiers were only given ten cartridges a month with which to practice, and some units did not even receive that much.  In 1877, Lieutenant Stephen Mills stated that ?target practice was practically unknown.  I think the allowance of ammunition was twenty rounds a year.?  By 1878, the state of marksmanship training had become so bad that the Department of the Pacific ordered .58 caliber muzzle-loading rifle-muskets to be taken out of storage so that troops could practice shooting."

and

from "The U.S. Army in the West, 1870-1880: Uniforms, Weapons, and Equipment  By Douglas C. McChristian"
"The Springfield breechloader's power, accuracy, and sustained rate of fire made it an effective weapon for such conditions.
Of course, this was based on the premise that the troops would be trained as capable combat marksmen. In reality, most soldiers
serving in the 1870's were not good marksmen because of the lack of formal training and because of the severe restrictions placed
on the amount of ammunition used for target practice. "

Today, "Common Sense" would make it obvious that a soldier needed
1) an ammunition allotment
2) training
3) time for practice

Back Then the thinking was that all the above was a waste of money.

We DO know that there were pistol and rifle shooting clubs back east and in California, we have their records and newspaper stories.
We DO know that market hunters reloaded and engaged in casual competition from the news paper account and bills and recipets.
We don't know "how much" the average guy or Law Enforcement type practiced

The New York City police Department did not have mandatory pistol practice until 1895 when Teddy Roosevelt took over
           see http://nychistory.blogspot.com/2007/02/theodore-roosevelt-and-nyc.html

BTW over here
https://libraryguides.missouri.edu/pricesandwages/1880-1889

is the single best documented source of prices and wages I have ever found. Research Librarians are your Friends! Use Them Wisely!

I will do some esoteric looking and see if I can find anything useful to contribute

yhs
prof marvel


Sorry that I expressed an opinion of mine, I guess that's not wanted here! Fine, I'll never bother you again! ::)
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Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2019, 02:14:38 pm »

Sorry that I expressed an opinion of mine, I guess that's not wanted here! Fine, I'll never bother you again! ::)

We value opinions, just in the right place. In a fact-based discussion forum of actual history one must be careful of opinions.

One can have opinions about established events or people, with supporting evidence such as
"It is my opinion that Gen Custer was a poor stradegist and tactician, and egotistical to boot,  based on xyz,"

However In discussions of Actual History itself  we deal only in facts backed up by supportable documentation.
Anything else is literally fiction or falsehood.

We can have opinions about the source of a story or doco, in which case multiple sources are key.

An excellent example is the so-called Biography of Wyatt Earp by Frank Waters, "The Earp Brothers of Tombstone" (1960)
Waters was a 20th century novelist and opted for a fiction-based smear of the Earps, some called it  historical fraud.
detailed info can be found at  http://www.tombstonehistoryarchives.com/?page_id=110

Anything else is like trying to argue an opinion that "gravity is a myth" or "the moon is made of green cheese".

no offense meant, just that this forum is all about provable facts.

hope this helps
Prof Marvel
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~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of
Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
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Offline Will Ketchum

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2019, 03:40:40 pm »

Sorry that I expressed an opinion of mine, I guess that's not wanted here! Fine, I'll never bother you again! ::)

Rye, that would be your loss. The good professor was trying to be helpful. He meant no disrespect. If you remain here, in this particular forum you will learn a lot. I have degrees in history and still often learn things here.
Don't be thin skinned. Historians can't afford that.
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Offline Rye Miles

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2019, 07:14:39 pm »
We value opinions, just in the right place. In a fact-based discussion forum of actual history one must be careful of opinions.

One can have opinions about established events or people, with supporting evidence such as
"It is my opinion that Gen Custer was a poor stradegist and tactician, and egotistical to boot,  based on xyz,"

However In discussions of Actual History itself  we deal only in facts backed up by supportable documentation.
Anything else is literally fiction or falsehood.

We can have opinions about the source of a story or doco, in which case multiple sources are key.

An excellent example is the so-called Biography of Wyatt Earp by Frank Waters, "The Earp Brothers of Tombstone" (1960)
Waters was a 20th century novelist and opted for a fiction-based smear of the Earps, some called it  historical fraud.
detailed info can be found at  http://www.tombstonehistoryarchives.com/?page_id=110

Anything else is like trying to argue an opinion that "gravity is a myth" or "the moon is made of green cheese".

no offense meant, just that this forum is all about provable facts.

hope this helps
Prof Marvel

Professor, you haven't shown me one bit of "fact" that would counter what I'm saying. There are no facts from people about how much ammo they bought or if they reloaded. Papers didn't write about people's personal purchases such as ammo or shovels or grain etc. This whole post is based on the premise that people may or may NOT reloaded. As a matter of fact it is a question open to discussion. I figured it WAS open to discussion and no one has shown me anything factual at all about the original question. The only thing factual was what I put on that a box of .45Colt cartridges cost $.84 according to the 1897 Sears catalog which I used as an argument against someone that said a .45 Colt round cost .25cents!

If you go back and re-read the comments, everyone was giving their opinion without any historical fact to back it up. Someone said they read many books on this subject, I asked who the authors were and what books they were. No response. I feel like I was singled out because I was going "against the grain" and not agreeing with everyone. Talk about thin skinned as someone said, it certainly isn't me!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 07:20:34 pm by Rye Miles »
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Offline Black River Smith

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2019, 07:47:42 pm »
Ok, I have come back in, to this discussions with just one new piece of info from one of the 70+ books that I own.  This is I think the only reloading box and tools directly owned by a ranch hand, that according to the authors.  The photo can be found in Cowboys & the Trappings of the Old West.  The photo is on page 102 at the bottom of the page and consists of an 1882 pattern Win tong tool; a Win early bullet mold(no wood handles); fired brass; tins of primers; and a box of molded bullets.

The authors text associated to this photo states "Ammunition was expensive in the Old West, and many revolvers took unusual cartridges that were not easily available.  Cowboys often had plenty of time in the winter to reload their own bullets.  Inexpensive hand-held pliers-like reloading tools were popular.  These kits only cost about $2 during the early 1880s.  This one was used on a ranch in Lincoln, New Mexico, during the 1880s." 

Now this book has items that cover a wide timeframe even into the '30s and maybe '40s movie era.  But this item is supposedly dated to the 1880's.

Now one photo does not mean that eveyone did, like I eluded to earlier, but it is a beginning for doubting that no-one did reload and everyone bought factory.

Rye, with over 70 books I doubt I will find my earlier comments.  My books range from the full leather bound Time Life series; to all of the RL Wilson books; to most of the Rosa book; to first hand account from known gunfighter, Texas rangers, cowboys, buffalo hunters, and well known persons of the western history.  Also, that book count does not include books on specific Western weapons, the Civil War and WWII history.  History is my second education.  Also, I do not have the inclination to look for something, I remember reading, 30 years ago.  I doubt it would change anyone's beliefs.

Del,  I do wish I had some of the personal first hand account books that you made reference too earlier they sound very interesting.  Just never ran into them.  May have to start looking for some of them.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 08:01:33 pm by Black River Smith »
Black River Smith

Offline Rye Miles

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2019, 06:43:19 am »
Ok, I have come back in, to this discussions with just one new piece of info from one of the 70+ books that I own.  This is I think the only reloading box and tools directly owned by a ranch hand, that according to the authors.  The photo can be found in Cowboys & the Trappings of the Old West.  The photo is on page 102 at the bottom of the page and consists of an 1882 pattern Win tong tool; a Win early bullet mold(no wood handles); fired brass; tins of primers; and a box of molded bullets.

The authors text associated to this photo states "Ammunition was expensive in the Old West, and many revolvers took unusual cartridges that were not easily available.  Cowboys often had plenty of time in the winter to reload their own bullets.  Inexpensive hand-held pliers-like reloading tools were popular.  These kits only cost about $2 during the early 1880s.  This one was used on a ranch in Lincoln, New Mexico, during the 1880s." 

Now this book has items that cover a wide timeframe even into the '30s and maybe '40s movie era.  But this item is supposedly dated to the 1880's.

Now one photo does not mean that eveyone did, like I eluded to earlier, but it is a beginning for doubting that no-one did reload and everyone bought factory.

Rye, with over 70 books I doubt I will find my earlier comments.  My books range from the full leather bound Time Life series; to all of the RL Wilson books; to most of the Rosa book; to first hand account from known gunfighter, Texas rangers, cowboys, buffalo hunters, and well known persons of the western history.  Also, that book count does not include books on specific Western weapons, the Civil War and WWII history.  History is my second education.  Also, I do not have the inclination to look for something, I remember reading, 30 years ago.  I doubt it would change anyone's beliefs.

Del,  I do wish I had some of the personal first hand account books that you made reference too earlier they sound very interesting.  Just never ran into them.  May have to start looking for some of them.

 I have a lot of the same books you've mentioned and I've read countless biographies of lawmen and outlaws. I've been a student of the Old West for as long as I can remember and I'm 72! 8)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 07:27:14 am by Rye Miles »
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Online Coffinmaker

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2019, 04:56:56 pm »

 :D  Personally.  Seriously.  I can't recall a single person .... whom I could ask .... whom was actually there and would have first person knowledge.  The myriad of tomes I have had access to .... were also written by persons without actual timely observation.  Those who were there, mostly didn't write anything down.  Histerakly there isn't a lot of concrete.  Oh .... almost forgot.  I really don't care.  It doesn't really matter.  Those guys had guns.  They bought ammunition.  They shot their guns with that ammunition.  When they ran out of ammunition, they got more.  Or emulated Lester More.

Offline Rye Miles

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2019, 07:11:40 pm »
:D  Personally.  Seriously.  I can't recall a single person .... whom I could ask .... whom was actually there and would have first person knowledge.  The myriad of tomes I have had access to .... were also written by persons without actual timely observation.  Those who were there, mostly didn't write anything down.  Histerakly there isn't a lot of concrete.  Oh .... almost forgot.  I really don't care.  It doesn't really matter.  Those guys had guns.  They bought ammunition.  They shot their guns with that ammunition.  When they ran out of ammunition, they got more.  Or emulated Lester More.

+100000
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Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2019, 09:48:30 pm »
Greetings Rye & Everybody -

soemtimes I just talk ( or write) too much and people miss the point I am trying to make... it just gets lost in my own noise.

So I'll try bullet items, like in a boring speech :-)

First-
Rye, I am actually ON YOUR SIDE  -- I believe, but cannot prove , that reloading was done more often than can be documented.

WHY do I hold this opinion?
1) WE KNOW that prior to cartridges, even with revolvers, reloading was the only way to make it go bang
2) WE KNOW that during the transitional period many Remington and some Colt percussion revolvers were fitted and/or sold outright
      with both percussion and cartidger conversion cylinders, and existing advertisements touted the ability to load with loose powder and ball if needed.
       AT THAT TIME, reloading tools were not yet available so reloading spent casings was not yet "popular"
3) WE KNOW from military reports  and other letters that Indians were regularly observed relodsing spent casings and even using friciton matches for primer material.
4) WE KNOW prior to the Civil War  that hunters, frontiersmen, Indians, scouts, etc regularly cast their own bullets because we have diaries and letters and military and
       booshway reports of men "running ball" over the fire at night

For some reason, the amount of detailed written doco regarding the topic seems to wither right around 1865 and going forward. People just stopped writing
about a lot of things -  it is much like the infamous "what did they use for tinder  during the Rev War?"

Now, from here we can Surmise or suggest. 
It is VERY UNLIKELY that frugal men who were used to casting ball and loading powder and ball into rifles and revolvers would suddenly buy only factory cartridges
and throw them away once shot. There is to my mind no difference between loading a C&B revolver and  repriming (even with a percussion cap, I tried it and it works) and reloading  an empty casing with powder and ball.

The question was:  Did they reload?

Answer: Yes they did

What do we actually know?
- by 1873 ish  there were loading tools, primers, empty cases bullets and powder for sale,
- we know  they were bought and used, rcpts & records exist
- there are a few rare entries in journals, diaries, letters, ledger books (for business) , and newspaper articles of "this guy reloading cartridges"

Who, how much, and how do we know?

who:
        we know that buffalo hunters, market hunters, some gunstore owners, some ranchers , and some Native Americans reloaded.
               and "probably" a bunch of other guys but we cannot prove it

how much: buff and market hunters a lot, everybody else , WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH

how do we know:
         we know how much some buff hunters and market hunters loaded, because it is documented in store reciepts,
         factory orders ( with names and delivery details) , and some very specific entries in logbooks, ledgers, and diaries by these people.
         This doco still exists and can be referenced because these guys were IN BUSINESS, and these records were part of their business records.

         There are occasional ( rare in my mind) letters , diary entries or military reports that specifically describe reloading.

Letters & diaries are good doco because they are first person narrative to folks "back home" and the writer is telling them news and
what is going on, and unless he is bragging about how wonderful he is ( I caught over a thousand fish today alone!)  there
is no reason for them to lie. Diaries are often a narrative of how much they accomplished such as land plowed, crops planted,
harvest brought in, deer etc hunted for meat, so that the writer can keep track of how good or bad the year has been.

Very occasionally you may see in a letter or diary "load a quantity of shells " or "loaded some cartridges" for the upcoming hunt ...
or "won the ham at the town scheutzenfest, and so must make time to load more cartridges for the fall" .... Even so, except for
the Range Wars & Indian Wars, 50 cartridges would last a long time.

Military reports or letters are much better, since they are giving detailed factual reports . It is there I have found such gems as a report
that (paraphrased) " Local hostiles are using captured cartridge guns, and due to lack of ammunition, are loading spent shell cases with powder and
ball"  or " Private Smith has been put on punishment duty, to wit: cartridge loadiing , Due to shortage of ammunition for training" .

However I can only recall 2 or 3 about the Indians, and only found 1 about loading as punishment duty.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The big probelm is the lack of written supporting doco.

A lot of popular books are written on topics ranging from the Buffalo Hunters, to Mountain Men, to Cowboys and cattle drives...
but very often they are causually written for a casual audience, and they ought not to be used as factual source unless they use accepted
methods of references , footnotes, etc.     because, without verifiable doco to back it up it is at best hear-say and at worst fiction.
And books without quoted footnotes and sources are more often "passed down old stories" than we would like.


In History, Serious Scholars use what is called "Historical Method"  see here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

In general these include
- do not "assume"
- do not "guess"
- do not try to apply modern thought or modern "common sense"
- you actually need documented proof, usually they want at least 5 examples

So there it is.

I did not mean for it to sound like I was dumping on you, just trying to explain the more rigorous "proofs" needed for actual acedemic style  historical research.

and I STILL think they reloaded more than we can prove.

your humble servant
Prof Marvel

ps I will try to dig out more stuff later if anybody cares
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2019, 10:02:29 pm »
Actually early in the last century many cowboys wrote down their memories and many of these books can be found at large libraries covered with dust from lack of use, none I read of maybe 2 dozen mentioned reloading.  The only mentions I've are the ones I listed.

So by the same "logic and common sense" it's likely very few people reloaded.

So we point out what we know and it don't fit your agenda so you have a small hissy fit and threaten to leave, that's not proper behavior for someone who claims to be 73 years old.

Mongrel Historian


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Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2019, 11:38:03 pm »
Actually early in the last century many cowboys wrote down their memories and many of these books can be found at large libraries covered with dust from lack of use, none I read of maybe 2 dozen mentioned reloading.

Ah My Good Del
There is the thing... the diaries are you found are only accessible if one is as serious as you and are willing to do the work to travel and find them. I will have to inquire around my area and see what if anything is available and if they will let me at their archives.

Many of the docs from the Fur Trade era are only available because people like Hansen did the work like you are doing, and recently some libraries are digitizing the works.

BTW
Afteryou posted some of the historic photos of kansas and nebraska i bookmarked those sources and have been perusing them casually... they are a great source, thanks.

Yhs
Prof marvel
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2019, 01:20:59 am »
Deep research takes time and effort, something many could do if they'd turn off the TV and do something useful.  The era of The History channel providing any useful information has long passed.

There are some amazing historical books on line now and most can be down loaded to a tablet and read at the Drs office while waiting or when left in the car by one's spouse while she shops at a store you'd rather not go into.
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Offline Rye Miles

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2019, 07:22:29 am »
Actually early in the last century many cowboys wrote down their memories and many of these books can be found at large libraries covered with dust from lack of use, none I read of maybe 2 dozen mentioned reloading.  The only mentions I've are the ones I listed.

So by the same "logic and common sense" it's likely very few people reloaded.

So we point out what we know and it don't fit your agenda so you have a small hissy fit and threaten to leave, that's not proper behavior for someone who claims to be 73 years old.

I never said that people reloaded where did you get that idea? I never said anything about reloading, NOT ONCE! My argument was that the price of ammo was misstated and it wasn't that expensive so they bought it. (Sears 1897 catalog .84 cents for a box of 50) I didn't have a hissy fit I just don't want to waste my time arguing over something that you seem to deem yourself an expert on and you allow no one else their point of view! Why don't you just drop this already and go do something constructive with your life!
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 07:31:42 am by Rye Miles »
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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2019, 08:35:03 am »

PEANUTS!!!   POPCORN!!!   CRACKERJACKS!!!!  COLD BEER!!!!  Front Row seating is still available!!!








Aw common ....... Play nice and Share Toys   ;D

Offline Delmonico

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2019, 10:47:50 am »
The cowboys didn't shoot much I agree but I'm sure the lawman and bad guys bought more than a box in a couple years. Probably more like a box a month I would guess and maybe more. The bad guys probably had more money and could afford to buy or even steal more ammo than that. ;D

It's implied several places.   ;)
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Offline Rye Miles

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2019, 12:34:29 pm »
It's implied several places.   ;)

 I said from the beginning I didn't say anything about reloading! Thanks for making my point! ::)
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Offline Black River Smith

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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2019, 01:47:58 pm »
I have returned to this topic in order to defend an early statement that was partly incorrect but was still for the most part correct but not believed by others.

In the 'TimeLife Series books the Old West the Gunfighter' page 106 second column.  The paragraph is written about the Ford elections where Bat Masterson was elected.  They state "But, once a sheriff attained office, he could scarcely avoid finding it profitable, for much of his time was spent collecting county taxes, and often he received a percentage of the take.  Combined, in some states, with a certain amount of judicious graft from road-building and other county contracts he dispensed, that sort of income could make a man 'wealthy':"

now the next is where my memory went wrong, because I did not like the western character.

"Sheriff John Behan... in Tombstone, was reputed to have raked in $40,000 a year during his term."

Back when I posted this statement I applied the dollar value to Masterson, but after reading this again and again I still believe that Masterson did become wealthy after having to cover a 300 mile radius on Kansas.

I still could not find the 25cent per cartridge statement.

Now for that topic of reloading and that no-one did and everyone bought ammo because it was so cheap.  The following is just another documented info that proves that reloading during the west was cheaper than buying for most and the common person.  But not those on the run, moving around from location to location, not willing to carry quantities of supplies.

In the book 'A Study of the Colt Single Action Army Revolver' by Graham - Kopec - Moore on page 306 & 307 the text states that the Government in 1882 changed the proprietary Colt internal primed cartridge to the new outside primer in order to reload because cases were most expensive components.   At the same time they changed the 45/70 to outside priming.  Both for the purpose of reloading because they had Springfield Armory create reloading tools.  Then in 1888 or 1890 the Government demanded that brass cases be substituted for copper.  The Government start to but 'no-one else' did.  The armies did require troops to reload.

These next comments are just thoughts.  By the argument that no one reloaded then the best business sense would have been only manufacture rimfire cases.  This controls the consumer market and make everyone pay the manufactures.  No independence.  All the following goes against this logic and the belief that no on reloaded and everyone wanted to just buy and buy factory ammo.

The first Colt conversion was the Thuer with its internal cartridges.  They made reloading tools for it.  Why?  According to some just buy more bullets from Colt.  Case manufacturing was the most expensive part, that's why.

When S&W developed the 3rd Model there where rimfire 44's like the Henry or other why not just use them and keep everyone buying loaded cartridges, good for business and 'no-one' reloaded.  But they determined like others outside primed cases could handle more powder and they could be reloaded.

Why did Win continue developing a newer rifle after the '66, according to those thinking no-one reloaded it would have been the best product for business.  But they created an outside reloadable case with more powder.  And as I listed before they and S&W immediately created reloading tools.

I still believe, lawmen where supplied with ammo from the city councils and that outlaws bought or stole ammo.  They did not need to reload.  But I do not believe everyone else only bought factory ammo, as I stated earlier.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 02:22:41 pm by Black River Smith »
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Re: Did they reload?
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2019, 09:51:42 am »

BRS .....
Some serious suppositions there.  There is no "evidence" troops were required to "reload."  Just the government changed cartridge requirements.  "If" ammunition was reloaded, it would most likely been done at Depot level.

I have no doubt there were a percentage of folks that reloaded cartridges.  I seriously doubt it was widespread.  My suppositions are the same as your suppositions.  Just suppositions and for the most part based on what we know of economics "today."

I must return to the position ..... I/We don't personally know anyone whom was 'there."  We constantly referee to tomes written by people who weren't there and didn't talk to anyone whom was there either and as such didn't know anymore then we do.  It's foolish to keep hammering the same nail when the nail doesn't hold anything together.

Besides .... at this point in time .... Who Cares??  It simply doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.  Your Nail, Your Hammer do with it as you will I suppose.