Author Topic: 1862 Cimarron .380?  (Read 1936 times)

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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1862 Cimarron .380?
« on: May 08, 2019, 11:55:08 am »
Looking at the ridiculous long barreled .380 "pocket Pistol", I wonder if it could be re-chambered to .38 short Colt.  I seem to remember it having a much smaller rim and case than the 38 S&W, as well as a hollow base .358" bullet in modern loadings, as opposed the the .361" solid bullet of the .38 S&W.  Do that and chop the barrel to 3" or 3.5" and it would be a slick little gun.

Since this is s new gun built from the ground up, why didn't they make it in.38 Short Colt or.38 S&W in the first place!
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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2019, 01:04:21 pm »
...Since this is s new gun built from the ground up, why didn't they make it in.38 Short Colt or.38 S&W in the first place!

I think we've covered this before.  My take is that this gun is not aimed at the CAS market.  In fact, it may be completely useless for CAS if there is no way to put the hammer down between chambers.  The average non-CAS shooter is a lot more familiar with .380.

Offline Major 2

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2019, 01:31:04 pm »
I don't believe 38 Short Colt or 38 S&W is commercially loaded , or if it is it's very small runs... .380 is everywhere.

The gun is quaint, but it will be I suspect, a market flop....

when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2019, 03:05:01 pm »
Remington still produces .38 S&W as a limited regular.  Fiocchi or S&B also produces it. Remington was the last to produce .38 Short Colt, and it used hollow base .358" bullets instead of the heeled bullet of the originals for the .375" bore
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2019, 03:41:18 pm »

PLUS ONE to Major 2.

I don't see a market.  A few individuals perhaps but not enough market to actually justify the thing.  I suspect the gun may well have been intended for the European market and was brought here as an after thought.  I personally would not expect to see it in anyones catalogue for any length of time.  I personally see it as pretty much useless.

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2019, 03:46:42 pm »
An 1849 Colt or 1863 Remmie in.31 caliber works perfect with an R&D .32 S&W conversion cylinder works like champ.
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Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2019, 04:02:59 pm »
Hmmmm..... Maybe an 1862 Colt 36 with a 3" bobbed barrel, and a Kirst .38 gated Konverter, shooting hollow base bullets.
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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 04:17:43 pm »
About a half dozen years ago or so, Cimarron was talking to Pietta about making a pocket Remington in .22.  I don't think that project got started, though.

Offline Galloway

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2019, 08:26:31 pm »
Would it be possible to handload blackpowder 38 short colts and safley fire in a 380 chamber?

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2019, 10:47:10 pm »
,38 Short Colt has a .379" case, the .380 has a .374"case.  Rims would also have to be scalloped as they would be too big
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Offline Galloway

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 11:10:50 pm »
I think i can make that work thanks!

Offline OklaTom

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2019, 11:34:31 am »
I have one of the new 1862 Conversions.  Comes with a 6" police barrel only.  There may be a 3 1/2" barrel available for it later, but that has been put on a back burner for now. And it does have a safety hammer. The hammer has a striker plate in the face of it that when the trigger is pulled, it pushes forward, like the firing pin on a Uberti Cattleman New Model. The firing pin is spring loaded in the ring.  When the trigger is released, the striker plate retracts, allowing the firing pin to retract into the ring.  This is a good thing for carrying it fully loaded. Another thing is the arbor is turned down a bit on the end and a rather stout coil spring fits over that rebate and into the barrel lug.  I am not positive on the purpose of that spring, but speculate it is to help absorb some of the snappiness of the 380 in the small frame open top.

 I note that there is insufficient ratchet to make it a 38 Short Colt.  So I set out to figure how I can make it shoot a more vintage caliber like 38 Short Colt. Basically, you turn the rim on a 38 SC down to 0.405" and it will clear the ratchet, but still have enough rim for reloading. Unless you want to ream the chambers to remove the 380 shoulder, you also need to trim the brass to 0.680". I chose not to modify the revolver at all.  So I trim the brass.  It kind of ends up a "380 Auto Rim" with a 38 Short Colt head stamp. Works like a champ.

Why did I go to all the trouble for the modified brass? 380 ACP in not an allowable cartridge in NCOWS, but 38 Short Colt is.  By the trim and rim, I can now shoot properly marked rounds in it for NCOWS, and by not modifying the revolver at all, I can shoot it as designed for other applications.
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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2019, 11:48:48 am »
Main match,  Brian ?
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline OklaTom

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2019, 12:17:26 pm »
Main match,  Brian ?

Probably not - that ?hammer down on an empty chamber? will get you, unless, like me, you have no trouble with reloading on the clock. Simple enough to load 4, then add 1 when the timer goes. Otherwise, this is a very cool side match pistol.

As NCOWS Judge, loading 4 then 1 on the clock is the only way I?d allow it. And I would not allow 380 ACP in an NCOWS match at all, since it is a 20th century caliber for auto pistols. I did choose the modified brass path to leave the revolver factory though.
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Offline Tornado

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2019, 12:34:52 pm »
I have one of the new 1862 Conversions. 

So are they out for sale now or did you get a pre-production test piece?

Offline OklaTom

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2019, 12:40:49 pm »
So are they out for sale now or did you get a pre-production test piece?

They will be out for sale soon.  I am a Cimarron Dealer, and placed an order for two as soon as they were announced.  Cimarron only got a few dozen in the first shipment, and they have about 5 times the number they received on back order from dealers, so they will still be scarce for a while.
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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2019, 12:51:49 pm »
Great info, Brian, thanks!  Are you thinking of cutting your barrel?

Offline OklaTom

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2019, 02:06:39 pm »
Great info, Brian, thanks!  Are you thinking of cutting your barrel?

No, sir!  I really like the graceful lines of the 6? barrel. Same reason all of my Cimarron Conversions and Open Tops are 7 1/2? or 8?. The lines just look sleeker. It so happens I already have a holster rig for it - I had a two gun rig made years ago for the 1862 percussion revolvers. I am open, after getting enough experience of how it shoots, to replacing the small cone with a 51 cone if it shoots too high.
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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2019, 02:49:04 pm »
Probably not - that ?hammer down on an empty chamber? will get you, unless, like me, you have no trouble with reloading on the clock. Simple enough to load 4, then add 1 when the timer goes. Otherwise, this is a very cool side match pistol.

As NCOWS Judge, loading 4 then 1 on the clock is the only way I?d allow it. And I would not allow 380 ACP in an NCOWS match at all, since it is a 20th century caliber for auto pistols. I did choose the modified brass path to leave the revolver factory though.

Very good Sir, as a former NCOWS Judge I Concur....


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Offline Johnson Barr

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2019, 06:05:15 am »
Ammo is available from Magtech. They produce Lead Round Nose cartridges in .32 S&W, .38 S&W and .380 ACP. .32 S&W Long is also available with SWC bullet.
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Offline nativeshootist

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2019, 01:22:12 am »
Maybe because I'm younger or not as stubborn. But getting riled up over a chambering is kinda redundant.  Cimarron went through the troubles on getting uberti to make this conversion, choosing the .380 acp is a choice that makes the most sense. The only place in my area that sells .38 short colt is a local gun store, sure they sell other uberti firearms but they're all mostly in 45 colt or 38spl. (Common calibers), sure  there's two in 32-20 and they've been there awhile. But having the new pistol in a readily available caliber is logical choice. Having to either; A. Buy the special ammo online and have it shipped to you, but you'll mostly have lots of surplus since buying bulk is cheaper online andI doubt you'll shoot it a ton. Or B. Having it .380 acp and buying the ammo locally since it's a common cartridge and not having to worry about surplus ammo. Now I dont shoot in sass or ncows, however, I can see this not being used as much for that. Also .380 could be made into a accept cartridge for ncows since .357 mag and other non old west cartridge  seem to be used.Just because you're head stamp doesn't say ".38 short colt.", shouldn't be that much of a problem. I'm glad that theres a new replica made, sure its technically another open top but its different, would be nice if it had an ejector but oh well. So I'd say enjoy the firearm, they went through the trouble too bring it here.

Offline OklaTom

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2019, 07:51:47 am »
I tend to agree with nativeshootist - the 380 ACP chambering makes sense for ammo availability. The ammo is easy to find. Being a handloader for the last 50 years, custom loading cartridges is no big deal to me, either - be it lead projectile 380 ACP or the special turned down 38 Short Colt. That is why I chose not to modify the revolver at all - aside from a general stoning of the inner parts to make it smoother operating.

I suppose someone could propose to NCOWS that the 380 caliber be accepted by NCOWS. But I doubt it would get far. I suspect 357 Mag became allowed as it is a ?child? of 38 Special which is a 19th century caliber - barely. Same with 44 Spl and 44 Mag. Children of the 44 Russian. I realize some concession on firearm/calibers are made because of the availability of replicas. For instance, none of the 1866 rifles are produced in the original 44 RF caliber, and no one produces that ammo. And there isthe fact that Winchester did not produce their rifles in straight wall calibers like 45 Colt and 357 Mag. But that?s a discussion for a different thread. Point here is that the 20th century 380 ACP is unlikely to be approved (by NCOWS) for the sake of a single fun revolver. We can just enjoy this new offering in whatever other way pleases the owner of the revolver.

I field tested mine found that it definitely prefers .356 bullets. The chamber mouths are .356 on mine, so shooting a .358 95 gr round nose suffered in accuracy, with swaging the bullet down upon firing. With .358 bullets, grouping at 15 yards was on average 3 inches. Using .356 bullets, grouping averaged under 1 inch. Shooting both black powder and smokeless loads, in either modified 38 Short Colt or 380 brass, the little revolver shot consistently 6-7 inches high. Replacing the tiny ?62 front cone with a taller ?51 cone brought that back down.
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Offline nativeshootist

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2019, 01:53:29 am »
Well oklatom, your tests with the new revolver is very welcomed indeed! How was the revolver with black powder?

Offline OklaTom

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2019, 05:07:05 am »
Well oklatom, your tests with the new revolver is very welcomed indeed! How was the revolver with black powder?

It was hard to get much black powder in such a diminutive case. It was like loading 32 S&W black powder cartridges. But it did give a nice pop and smoke. It shot the same 6-7? high as the smokeless 380 ACP and ?38 Short Colt Short?.  It is pretty well dialed in now.
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Offline nativeshootist

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Re: 1862 Cimarron .380?
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2019, 08:59:09 pm »
Looks like cimarron has the 62 conversion available on their website now. 570$ seems like a lot

 

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