Author Topic: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?  (Read 2239 times)

Offline Major 2

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2019, 05:20:39 am »
So many people poo poo on dremels but they certainly have their place. Those that do damage with one just don't know what they are doing or are careless and are probably not using a variable speed with the right attachments.  Precisely why THOSE that don't know should avoid them....

You can do justs as much damage with the wrong file or stone and a dremel will do in a couple seconds with the right polishing wheel and compound that you can do in several minutes with stones or polishing clothes.
Exactly, THOSE that don't know can screw up FASTER


I don't know how many tubs of elbow grease dremels have saved me knifemaking and from that experience of filing and polishing with them yes I don't hesitate to use one on a gun part under the right circumstance.
Correct, I have Dremels , have used them for 50 years, with an entire Dremel attachment cabinet of all kinds of special fixtures made for polishing, cutting , milling , sanding , grinding ETC  and a foot peddle 

I have all kinds of special fixtures made for polishing surfaces when knifemaking that work perfect for certain gunsmithing applications.

The trick knifemakers today know but apparently no gunsmiths know is to use foot controlled switches. Never lay the part against or remove the part from a moving wheel or cutting tool, you fixture everything up or have it held snug at the right angle and braced before touching the power and then you touch the power on and off. This way the abrasives only touch at the appropriate angle and the right area of the part. Touch and measure, touch and measure, just like using a file or stone except when using a machine you don't have to take several strokes and then accidently take one mislick messing up the whole few before that.
No question you Sir are fine knifemaker, not to mention leather artisan , and perhaps accomplished Gun mechanic, something the OP may not be    

No different than the equation of which is more accurate, taking a few thousands off of a machined surface using a flat file or a mill or surface grinder? I think we know which is more accurate. Speaking of that, yes I even have surface grinders retrofitted to use grinding wheels and belts.

HENCE ...my warning , not poo pooing Dremel tools ! , rather Suggesting it is the FASTER way to screw up.
Not the fastest, that is reserved for the thought that " those who don't know what they are doing and proceed to use the Dremel anyway....


when planets align...do the deal !

Offline greyhawk

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2019, 08:27:08 am »
HENCE ...my warning , not poo pooing Dremel tools ! , rather Suggesting it is the FASTER way to screw up.
Not the fastest, that is reserved for the thought that " those who don't know what they are doing and proceed to use the Dremel anyway....

Major
I'll go along with all of that ......trying to put metal back on where ya shouldna took it off from (with a Dremel, file or whatever else) ... is a huge problem .

Just in from my workshop - finished (I think) a major rebuild on a little Erma Wagonmaster 22- came recently from my Dad (who is almost 95 and starting to fail)  he assured me it worked ok --- cleaned and oiled and it was lookin a bit wonky - first test fire it functioned ok but didnt feel solid and wasnt feeding from the magazine - three days ago I took it out for another go and she spat one in my face - rim split - smoke out the top of the action - guess who didnt have his earmuffs on?

ok so fix it or trash it !!!!!! Pa has had this apart recently and lost the little spring and plunger that holds the cartridge elevator in place - that was the feed problem fixed - the back end of this gun was just wore out - and not locking up properly - I decided to rebuild it by boring out the locking bolt pin holes and bushing them in the alloy frame ane also bush the hole in the bolt - I set the bolt up in the mill and proceeded to enlarge the pin hole with an 8 mm end mill - it cut like butter till I got about two thirds the way through then all progress halted - I pulled the end mill out of the collet and it was blunt as .... serves me right for buying those cheap Chinese tools I thought!   I ground the cutter back sharp with a little grinding wheel on my dremel and give it another go - same again it burred the tool blunt - and look down the hole and theres that shiny finish on the steel and you know this aint going well at all - the only way I could get that done and salvage the part was to use a chain saw grinding stone on my Dremel and grind the hard patch out of that hole - I must have hit a little patch of something really hard cuz it was cutting really nice, I had coolant on, didnt change the feed pressure, it just stopped cutting all at once - the piece I was working is decent steel but it cuts fine with a good file.
When I bushed the locking bolt pin I offset it to move the  locking bolt forward in the action to take the slack out of it all - then had to slowly fit the locking bolt into its notch in the main bolt - maybe twenty times I had this gun apart over the whole refinish and ifn ya not prepared to do that however many times it takes - then give the thing to someone else to fix !!!!!

Online Coffinmaker

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2019, 09:57:02 am »

Well ..... Hi Cliff,

I wish that you should go back and re-read your first paragraph.  Then, you may be able to imagine what came walking through my door.  At least once a day.  For years.

You might also want to take a quick gander at your 5th Paragraph.  I personally can't believe just how full yourself and how full of crap you are.

Do be so kind as to have a nice day.  Or not.

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2019, 10:23:19 pm »
Well ..... Hi Cliff,

I wish that you should go back and re-read your first paragraph.  Then, you may be able to imagine what came walking through my door.  At least once a day.  For years.

You might also want to take a quick gander at your 5th Paragraph.  I personally can't believe just how full yourself and how full of crap you are.

Do be so kind as to have a nice day.  Or not.

Oh, sorry to have struck such a nerve. LOL

I was merely pointing out how, ALMOST, every gunsmith poo poos use of dremels (I hear the internet jargon all the time) from even being in their shop and never heard of one using cutoff switches that every knifemaker or jeweler I know automatically uses. Since I know literally hundreds of custom knifemakers and many jewelers and a good number of gunsmiths and been in literally dozens of shops and seen their equipment and speak from experience if that makes me full of crap then so be it. Not sure how you took such offense to that since it seems to be fact. The fact you got such offended makes me realize you never used remote switches or have polishing machines set up that way so there is more evidence of proof.

And I was not putting you are any gunsmith down for doing things the old fashion way, I was just pointing out that in other sectors just as accurate grinding and polishing is done on parts using machines and was pointing out the safe accurate way they are applied. Sorry you took such offense to facts.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 10:35:04 pm by Cliff Fendley »
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Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2019, 10:28:28 pm »
HENCE ...my warning , not poo pooing Dremel tools ! , rather Suggesting it is the FASTER way to screw up.
Not the fastest, that is reserved for the thought that " those who don't know what they are doing and proceed to use the Dremel anyway....

No machines can be a quicker way of screwing up something or a more accurate way of doing certain operations. Which is determined by the user and where and what tool is used for various operations.

Would I use a dremel for fitting a bolt as in the OP? No, but they do have their place.
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Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2019, 11:05:26 pm »
Cliff
You got my attention 
(I use a Dremel a lot - just try to not admit it in the presence of Coffin Maker type people) 
How do I set up the foot control - bearing in mind I am cheep and would envisage using something like a cast off sewing machine controller - do we vary the feed in power and the Dremel takes that allright? I agree that most of the damage seems to occur approaching and leaving the work and as well we (or I do) tend to run the machine too slow a lot of the time because of the delay time in switching on and off. Have been using the cable drive extension shaft on mine recently - shoulda done a lot more of that too .
cheers
Greyhawk

They sell the foot switch with the cord just for that. You just plug it in and plug the machine into it like plugging christmas lights or the same way the float switch works on submersible pumps. I have never used a rheostat one or if they even make them, I always have the speed of the machine set and bump the pedal. It just disconnects one leg same as flipping the on off switch on the machine or a wall switch. My brother even uses one when grinding and stuffing sausage on the grinder to make it a one man operation and not touching switches with your hands.

Knifemaking and jeweler supply places carry them or you can even pick up a cheapy at Harbor Freight.
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Offline greyhawk

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2019, 09:28:01 am »
They sell the foot switch with the cord just for that. You just plug it in and plug the machine into it like plugging christmas lights or the same way the float switch works on submersible pumps. I have never used a rheostat one or if they even make them, I always have the speed of the machine set and bump the pedal. It just disconnects one leg same as flipping the on off switch on the machine or a wall switch. My brother even uses one when grinding and stuffing sausage on the grinder to make it a one man operation and not touching switches with your hands.

Knifemaking and jeweler supply places carry them or you can even pick up a cheapy at Harbor Freight.

Thanks!

Online Coffinmaker

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2019, 05:42:43 pm »

Well heck.  Ignorance is certainly bliss.  It would appear there is a certain misunderstanding of "Facts" and "Proof."  Alternative facts and alternative proof are of no benefit to anyone.

Every Gunsmith I have ever known has a Dremel.  Most use a remote head and foot switch.  WE don't Poo Poo Dremel tools.  We Poo Poo the amateurs whom use them without any knowledge of what to grind on where.  Or how for that matter.

Machines don't mess things up.  The people who operate the machines with no knowledge or training use machines to screw things up.  Some presumptions presented of Proofs are no more than an expression of stupidity.

So, please be so kind, the next time you jump up on YOUR soapbox, make sure first to peek in and count the machine tools we use.  Perhaps we should count the cost of my Mill agains your entire operation??  The Lathe??  4 different stand alone polishing machines.  3 different bench top strip sanders, Blueing and Plating Tanks, oh, and let us not forget the flexi shaft Dremel that I run with a knee switch (foot switch mounted sideways).

Since the entire argument is actually caused by unskilled operators, I would suggest we quit throwing clods at each other and get back to sharing toys and playing nice.  ::)

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2019, 07:44:07 pm »
Perhaps we should count the cost of my Mill agains your entire operation??  The Lathe??  4 different stand alone polishing machines.  3 different bench top strip sanders, Blueing and Plating Tanks, oh, and let us not forget the flexi shaft Dremel that I run with a knee switch (foot switch mounted sideways).


Sure! love seeing other setups and ideas. You want to compare Bridgeports first or just jump right on to the CNC mills?

Honestly my CNC is nothing to brag about, it's an old Lagun that a genius friend of mine rebuilt and updated to more modern software nearly 25 years ago, still run G-Code on everything and some of the programs are still on floppy disc but hey it works and that's what matters. I honestly use my Bridgeport, Jet, or old Deckel pantograph mills mostly for vertical milling. For my limited gunsmithing milling needs the old Atlas horizontal mill usually fits the bill for milling sights, cutting slots etc. I only work on my own guns so my setup is not for guns anyway, I just use what I have that works.

Oh and I agree, you can't have too many belt sanders. This is my main grinding room where most of the dirty work is done consists of five Baders and an old Boyar Schultz I converted to use belts. I don't use stone grinders much, just out in the welding shop for ugly work.


I built this platen attachment for this old Spacesaver. Has a ceramic strip with various rests to hold and clamp things or use freehand.



« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 07:46:35 pm by Cliff Fendley »
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Offline Crow Choker

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2019, 10:40:14 pm »
Wall !!!!!!!!---I'll come to the defense of some of ya and agree with the posts of others. As  I stated in my first post reference Dremels, "They have their place", ie for doing some tasks. I've used one since around 1972/3-on my second one at present, one of the newer ones with adjustable speed and all kinds of 'do-dads' to make them eiaser to use vs just hanging onto the unit. 'BUT'-they "ain't" the holy grail to being a gunsmith or doing the tasks a gunsmith needs to do, weather a pro, amateur, or whatever. I've read things over the years, mostly hype advertising by Dremel or some outfit 'hawking them' showing some guy with a big smile or concentrated look working over some type of firearm with a caption saying "This could be you". Some guys have the idea that all you need to slick up a firearm or transform a old clunker into a family heirloom with nothing but a Dremel in hand. Like I advised, they have their place for certain functions in working on a firearm, but in the delicate and needed areas where areas need a true flat surface, arc, or whatever, you'll never do it with a hand held electric tool having some grinding, polishing, or any other assesory on it. Doesn't matter if you have  some foot or knee controller. Just won't get a true surface. Needed are files, stones, and/or fine grit cloth. Not stepping on anybody's toes or abilities. I'm not as good of a gunsmith as some, but better than others, just the way it is. Not bragging or applauding about my own talents, have been working on firearms of various kinds for around 50 years (add another 5 to that if you want to include tearing all of my Dad's stuff apart before that to see how they worked). I've seen and read what a Dremel can do to a firearm in the dark realm of "better to be forgotten".  Just saying a Dremel doesn't make you a Ralph Walker any more buying a Fender Stratocaster makes you a Eric Clapton. Been there, done that in both area's.  ;D
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Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2019, 01:21:46 pm »
Geez guys, ya could have used a little more friendly talk with the OP . Talk like that drives CAS site members away from the forum. Always found a little 'finesse' goes a long ways. JMO and experience.

 Yep-Pettifogger's info is top shelf. It can also be found on the Darkside site on this forum under the Dark Arts approximately half way down titled "Tuning the Cap and Ball for Competition'. It is Pettifoggers Open Range info posted by Noz.

Thank you for your kind word.   
My choice of words ?simple? procedure I think was poor and/or misunderstood as thinking the craftmamship that goes into being a gunsmith in general is no big deal and something any Tom, Dick or Harry can do with a set of garage tools.  And I didn?t mean it that way at all.  (if I did, I wouldn?t be here asking questions, I?d be hacking up my gun in the garage).  So I apologise for the misunderstanding.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 01:23:31 pm by Doug.38PR »

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2019, 01:32:54 pm »
"An SCV reenactor i know told me to use a Dremel"

That's like asking a proctologist to pratice brain surgury ...just the WRONG tools.



I should have added:  this is not a guy that shows up at Somewhereburg Battlefield, puts on a gray uniform, is handed a rifle, loads powder into it and shoots it in the air for people to cheer.   

He designs equipment, exhibits pistols, rifles, knives, swords, gear, and gives lessons on equiment and how it functions and works on his own equipment to a certain degree.    Not a gunsmith, but is familiar with the weapons and how they function.

Offline greyhawk

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2019, 07:27:32 am »
Thanks!

Hey Cliff
I got my remote switch for the Dremel - its been sitting around for a while - just came the switch with three wires out of it,  no plugs or anything, wiring had me puzzled some - this switch looks meant as a two direction affair a single live IN,  one wire live in the OFF and the other wire live in the ON, I ended up splicing it into a short extension cord (can use it anywhere I like then) and just running the active through the switch and taping off the wire thats live with switch OFF.
It works good - major improvement in useability with the Dremel.
Thanks for the nudge !
greyhawk