Author Topic: Uberti Schofield and BP  (Read 22328 times)

Offline Slowhand Bob

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Uberti Schofield and BP
« on: October 01, 2011, 08:54:14 am »
From another forum:

I am wondering about the Uberti Schofields and their ability to make smoke.  My pair in 45colt has been doing well for many years using the Subs and reduced powder loads.  Powders used with success has been Clean Shot, Pinnacle and APP, with all easily performing well for at least six stages with no additional support needed.  Bullets have been between 160 and 200grs with no preference noted and pretty much the same for brass, they gobble everything from Cowboy .45 Special, .45 Schofield and including .45colt brass with any headstamp.  The one restriction is that early on they showed a preference for reduced loads, I'm guessing even the slick residue produced by the subs can get to be to much.

Sometime back I obtained a 5" barl Uberti Schofield in  44-40 and this one was a totally differrent critter.  No amount of tweaking has allowed me to make smoke with the 44-40 version.  This has me wondering, how many of the Schofield shooters who wanted to make smoke and couldn't were actually using the 44-40?  Has anyone been able to get a 44-40 Schofield to perform well through a match making smoke?  Those who have tried unsuccessfully to make smoke with a .45 Schofield tried light bp sub loads?

The .45 Special case size seems to be ideal in my guns with a bullet that is 200gr or lighter.


Offline St. George

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2011, 02:41:05 pm »
There are numerous postings on the suitability of the modern Schofield and the use of Black Powder.

The longer cylinder length that the Italins created to accomodate .45 Colt is the same, no matter what cartridge is used, and the gas collar was eliminated.

This greatly affects the success rate (or not) in using the powder that the modern weapon wasn't designed for, because of the propensity for fouling.

Look through this forum's 'back pages', and you'll find a wealth of information that may or may not fix this problem, since it seems to affect different revolvers in their own, unique way.

Good Luck!

Vaya,

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« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 08:55:38 am by St. George »
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Offline Montana Slim

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2011, 10:28:26 pm »
One of my old rules of thumb regarding BP fouling:

Less Powder = Less Fouling Residue


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Offline Slowhand Bob

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2011, 08:40:51 am »
I had a couple of thoughts on this that I posted on the other site.  For years I have been figuring small loads to be the main ingredient BUT responses would seem to have disproved this.  When we are only considering 'out of box' Schofields the claimed variation is pretty extreme.  Most who try bp or a sub claim their guns will not handle either well at all, add in the fact that most Schofield owners would never even try to make smoke.  I would guess that the total number of shooters happily making smoke from Uberti brand Schofields would probably only amount to one or two dozen,,, other opinions on that number??  I can account for two such guns and guess mine fall in the middle of the 'can make smoke' group.  Mine do not perform with real bp but do very well with subs, while I have seen several claim their guns could run indefinitely with real black powder.   Would I be off base to figure that the number of shooters wanting to make smoke and cant would probably be double those who can?

The difference has to be in the normal manufacturing range of tolerances.  Where to look for the relevant tolerances is the important question.  For years I figured it was in the cylinder to barrel gap, but I now think it has more to do with something else or at least a combination of two factors.   Some have seized on lube as the great denominator but I and others have found that to be immaterial with our loads.  I never use special lubes with the subs and frequently use no bullet lube at all and there is no effect.  Lube would factor in more with the use of real Bp I am sure.  If no one can step forward and say that they are making smoke with thin walled 44-40 brass perhaps that would be a sign post to somewhere, perhaps pressure.

Obviously Uberti is not interested in finding the variation for us and our only other option would be observation and comparison amongst ourselves.  It would be great if the few shooters who do want to make smoke with a Schofield had some sort of guidelines to follow that might increase their options, above doling out hundreds of dollars to only end up with a safe queen.     

Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 11:23:37 am »
Bob

I do not know if you are including me among those who claim they can run their guns indefinitely with Black Powder or not. My comments on the SASS Wire were based on my shooting of my New Model #3, which is an original Smith and Wesson made in 1882, not a modern replica. Yes, I can run it all day long with no binding at all.

S&W solved this problem well over 100 years ago. It has nothing to do with tolerances or width of barrel/cylinder gap. It is the height of the bushing at the front of the cylinder. S&W did not get this right at the first try, it took 3 tries on their American Model revolver in 1870 until they got it right. By putting a bushing on the front of the cylinder that is tall enough to horizontally separate the barrel/cylinder gap from the opening to the cylinder pin, they created a shield that protects the pin from getting any fouling blasted on to it. As I have already explained, Uberti's modern version of the Schofield made the bushing too short to be of much use in defecting fouling away from the cylinder pin.

Uberti Schofields are not alone in having this problem. The Remington New Model 1858 Cap & Ball revolver is also a poor performer with Black Powder, not withstanding the fact that it is a percussion gun designed to be shot with Black Powder. There is no raised bushing at all at the front of the cylinder on the Remmie, and fouling gets blasted directly onto the cylinder pin.

The 1875 and 1890 Remington cartridge revolvers do have a bushing up front, but it is not long enough to keep them running as reliably as most Colts and Colt replicas. I know a guy who just got into Cowboy shooting with a pair of Uberti 1875s, and he is continually wiping down his cylinders. The bushing on his Remmies is simply not as tall as the bushing on a Colt or a Ruger.

You will also hear comments that the removable bushing of a Colt is superior to the built in bushing of a Ruger. That has not been my experience. I can run my Rugers just as long as my Colts on Black Powder, the removable bushing does not add to how long the Colts will run.

I strongly suspect that if you want to milk the best performance out of your Schofield, you should attempt to create as little soot as possible with your loads. Using a clean burning powder will help in this regard. Goex is pretty dirty burning stuff, Swiss is probably the cleanest, but it is expensive. These days I shoot nothing but Schuetzen, it is cleaner burning than Goex and goes for about the same price. Graf sells the same stuff under their own name. I hear that the latest imports of KIK are also very clean burning.

I would stay with a full load and a good amount of compression. Generally you are going to get a cleaner burn with more compression.

I would also use as much lube as possible. Use a Big Lube bullet with as much SPG or other BP compatible lube as it will carry.

I hoping Dick Dastardly will answer this post, because I know he did some experimenting on milking the best performance possible from an Italian Schofield. Perhaps his Pearl Lube?
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Offline Mossyrock

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2011, 09:25:47 pm »
I have Beretta Laramie, Uberti's clone of the S&W #3.  While it is chambered in .45 Colt, I have shot nothing out of it but my own BP .45 Schofield loads.  Thus far, I have shot 100 rounds in one range session with no issues.  This was a 230gr bullet with lots of good lube, but it worked just fine.  One of these days, I will be at the range with enough BP loads to lock it up, just to see how many it would take.
Mossyrock


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Offline Slowhand Bob

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2011, 08:22:09 am »
I guess I have been asking the question all wrong.  What might be simpler than asking why most guns do not work from the box it would have been simpler to ask why do the few that do work,  uhh work?

Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2011, 11:47:54 am »
Here is the thread I was hoping Dick Dastardly would post. Perhaps you will find it useful.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,23605.0.html
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Offline Blackpowder Burn

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2011, 07:55:20 am »
I just encountered a Uberti Schofield at a local gunshop yesterday.  It was used, but of recent manufacture.  To my great surprise, it was chambered in 45 Colt and had a gas collar.  Have any of you encountered this?  While I have no personal experience with Schofields, the gas collar appears to be shorter than originals, but it is present.

I"d love to have a pair of them, but have always avoided buying one because I shoot BP only and was concerned with fouling of the Uberti's without the collar.  If they've remedied that, I'll have to move them to the top of my wish list.
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Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 08:21:04 am »
Howdy

Uberti never completely eliminated the gas collar on the cylinder of their version of the Schofield. They shortened it. When they redesigned their Schofield for 45 Colt they made the cylinder longer than the originals in order to accept the longer 45 Colt round. But they did not correspondingly lengthen the frame to accommodate the longer cylinder. Instead they shortened the gas collar so the longer cylinder would fit in the same size frame.

If you read through my earlier post in this section I explain how the long gas collar functions to keep fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap away from the cylinder pin. Fouling blasted onto the cylinder pin is the main cause of binding in any revolver shooting Black Powder, S&W, Colt, Ruger, Remington, or any other brand. When the gas collar is long enough, it shields the pin from fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. The fouling blasts out pretty much in one plane. If the collar is long enough, it sets the opening in front of the gas collar far enough ahead of the barrel/cylinder gap that the fouling does not get past it to bind up the cylinder pin.

Here are a few photos to illustrate the concept.

Although not a Schofield, here are a few photos of my S&W New Model #3. The concept is the same.

First, here is the front of the cylinder showing the gas collar. The gas collar stands about .165 proud of the face of the cylinder.




Here the barrel and cylinder are laid out next to each other so the relationship of the parts can be seen. Notice there is a considerable distance between the end of the barrel and where the cylinder pin emerges from the frame. Also notice the helical clearance cut around the cylinder pin. This feature was common on the arbor of a Colt Cap & Ball revolver. It helps create a space for fouling to migrate to without binding the cylinder.




Here the gun has been reassembled. Notice the distance between the barrel/cylinder gap and the front of the gas collar is about .170 or so, the length of the gas collar. This is the design that S&W came up with well over 100 years ago and it works beautifully for deflecting powder fouling away from the cylinder pin.







Here are some similar photos of a S&W Double Action 44 of mine:









Here is the assembled cylinder and barrel of an Uberti Schofield. I did not snug up the cylinder properly, but you get the idea. I measured the gas collar on this particular gun and it is only about .070 proud of the front of the cylinder.




Here is a photo of that particular cylinder. It is the one in front. You can clearly see the difference in the shape of the cylinder bushing. The cylinder in the rear of this photo also deserves mention. This is an ASM cylinder that Happy Trails modified by adding a longer gas collar to it. He also cut back the area on the frame where the gas collar seats to clear the longer collar.




Here is the modified cylinder with its gas collar removed. Ignore the screw driver bit behind it, that was just to keep it from rolling for the photo. Hap made these collars a slip fit, the originals were pressed in and were not removable. The narrow gas collar that Uberti machines onto their cylinders is an integral part of the cylinder. Incidentally, Hap's gas collar stands about .150 proud of the front of the cylinder.



Sorry, in case you want him to do the modification, Happy Trails is retired. But it is not rocket science once you understand the concept. Any good smith should be able to duplicate his results.

That's the story with why the Uberti Schofields do not function very well with Black Powder. The gas collar is just not long enough to effectively block the cylinder pin from getting coated with fouling when it is blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. The fouling is ejected with great force, and it easily finds its way past a short gas collar and gets deposited on the cylinder pin. Some shooters do have good results shooting these guns with Black Powder. I cannot explain why, but most do not get very good results. Generally speaking, if you want to shoot BP in an Uberti Schofield, use as much lube as you can on your bullets. I recommend the Big Lube bullets because they carry tons of lube and will go further in keeping any fouling that makes its way to the cylinder pin soft. I also recommend using the cleanest burning powder you can find. Goex is particularly dirty stuff, it leaves a lot of fouling behind. Swiss is the best and leaves the least fouling behind, but it is expensive. I find that Schuetzen is cleaner burning than Goex and leaves less fouling behind than Goex. Graf sells the same powder as Schuetzen, it is just bottled under their own label. I hear the new KIK is good stuff but I have no personal experience with it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 08:42:24 am by Driftwood Johnson »
That’s bad business! How long do you think I’d stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he’d pay me that much to stop robbing him, I’d stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Offline Blackpowder Burn

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2011, 07:01:21 pm »
Driftwood,

Thanks for the information.  I'd heard so many people say that Uberti eliminated the gas collar that I thought it was completely gone.  Just another object lesson in the necessity of checking facts thoroughly, and not believing something because lots of people say it.
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Offline Mossyrock

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2011, 08:00:53 pm »
Driftwood,

While I know it is a sin, I DEEPLY covet that #3!   :o

Mossyrock

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Offline John William McCandles

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2011, 07:13:09 am »
Howdy

Uberti never completely eliminated the gas collar on the cylinder of their version of the Schofield. They shortened it. When they redesigned their Schofield for 45 Colt they made the cylinder longer than the originals in order to accept the longer 45 Colt round. But they did not correspondingly lengthen the frame to accommodate the longer cylinder. Instead they shortened the gas collar so the longer cylinder would fit in the same size frame.

If you read through my earlier post in this section I explain how the long gas collar functions to keep fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap away from the cylinder pin. Fouling blasted onto the cylinder pin is the main cause of binding in any revolver shooting Black Powder, S&W, Colt, Ruger, Remington, or any other brand. When the gas collar is long enough, it shields the pin from fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. The fouling blasts out pretty much in one plane. If the collar is long enough, it sets the opening in front of the gas collar far enough ahead of the barrel/cylinder gap that the fouling does not get past it to bind up the cylinder pin.

Here are a few photos to illustrate the concept.

Although not a Schofield, here are a few photos of my S&W New Model #3. The concept is the same.

First, here is the front of the cylinder showing the gas collar. The gas collar stands about .165 proud of the face of the cylinder.




Here the barrel and cylinder are laid out next to each other so the relationship of the parts can be seen. Notice there is a considerable distance between the end of the barrel and where the cylinder pin emerges from the frame. Also notice the helical clearance cut around the cylinder pin. This feature was common on the arbor of a Colt Cap & Ball revolver. It helps create a space for fouling to migrate to without binding the cylinder.




Here the gun has been reassembled. Notice the distance between the barrel/cylinder gap and the front of the gas collar is about .170 or so, the length of the gas collar. This is the design that S&W came up with well over 100 years ago and it works beautifully for deflecting powder fouling away from the cylinder pin.







Here are some similar photos of a S&W Double Action 44 of mine:









Here is the assembled cylinder and barrel of an Uberti Schofield. I did not snug up the cylinder properly, but you get the idea. I measured the gas collar on this particular gun and it is only about .070 proud of the front of the cylinder.




Here is a photo of that particular cylinder. It is the one in front. You can clearly see the difference in the shape of the cylinder bushing. The cylinder in the rear of this photo also deserves mention. This is an ASM cylinder that Happy Trails modified by adding a longer gas collar to it. He also cut back the area on the frame where the gas collar seats to clear the longer collar.




Here is the modified cylinder with its gas collar removed. Ignore the screw driver bit behind it, that was just to keep it from rolling for the photo. Hap made these collars a slip fit, the originals were pressed in and were not removable. The narrow gas collar that Uberti machines onto their cylinders is an integral part of the cylinder. Incidentally, Hap's gas collar stands about .150 proud of the front of the cylinder.



Sorry, in case you want him to do the modification, Happy Trails is retired. But it is not rocket science once you understand the concept. Any good smith should be able to duplicate his results.

That's the story with why the Uberti Schofields do not function very well with Black Powder. The gas collar is just not long enough to effectively block the cylinder pin from getting coated with fouling when it is blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. The fouling is ejected with great force, and it easily finds its way past a short gas collar and gets deposited on the cylinder pin. Some shooters do have good results shooting these guns with Black Powder. I cannot explain why, but most do not get very good results. Generally speaking, if you want to shoot BP in an Uberti Schofield, use as much lube as you can on your bullets. I recommend the Big Lube bullets because they carry tons of lube and will go further in keeping any fouling that makes its way to the cylinder pin soft. I also recommend using the cleanest burning powder you can find. Goex is particularly dirty stuff, it leaves a lot of fouling behind. Swiss is the best and leaves the least fouling behind, but it is expensive. I find that Schuetzen is cleaner burning than Goex and leaves less fouling behind than Goex. Graf sells the same powder as Schuetzen, it is just bottled under their own label. I hear the new KIK is good stuff but I have no personal experience with it.

Mr Johnson;
Would you by chance know the measurements of the bushing used? OD, ID and OAL.  Also was a drill bushing used or a softer metal?
Thanks
JW
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Offline Virginia Gentleman

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 12:37:04 am »
I wonder what gunsmiths in CAS circles would make this modification?

Offline Abominable Bill

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2013, 04:21:53 pm »
I took the information to a local gunsmith and he made the changes to my Uberti Russians
Granted I only use APP loads; but they will run all day

Offline matt45

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2013, 12:50:18 pm »
Hello the Camp
     For about the past week I have been experimenting w/ different variations of B.P. loads in my Uberti (45 Schofield, 7" barrel; shooting 45 Schofield).  I am out of my home built cast bullets, so I've been using store bought Goex 235 gr w/ SPG lub.  Drop tube is 14", B.P. is Schutzen FFG, grain weight 26.5, volume approx. 3/4 full.
     1ST, I loaded 20 rounds w/ no wad, next was 20 rounds w/ lubed felt, and finally 20 rounds w a thin wafer of SPG serving as a wad.  Accuracy for the two w/ some kind of wad was best, 2 1/2" @ 25 yards being an average.  The exciting news is yesterday I went through 100 rounds of the SPG wafer loads as fast as I could load and shoot, and had no binding problem. 
     For those that shoot 45 Schofields in a Henry, these function fine, and shoot OK, although I have not done a lot of work, yet.  I'm going to do some chrono work in the near future, and will report back.

Offline matt45

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2013, 06:15:38 pm »
...and here we go again
sat down w/ the chronograph this afternoon and tested two loads, one smokeless, the other the B.P. load from above.  The SPG wads make it tough to get a good read, but with a temp of 47, altitude 5973, humidity of 37%, Barometer 29.73
Hi- 707; low- 675, avg 691. 
     I fired 18 rounds, but I only got a good read on 5 of them, so I didn't bother w/ the sd.  Anyways, if someone wanted to load these, there's the data- hope it helps. ;)

Offline matt45

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2013, 12:20:22 pm »
Last night I shot 45 rounds, and did have the cylinder bind up.  So, while I think the SPG wad helps, it does not cure the blues. >:(
     The good news is my 11 year old girl really likes shooting the Schofield w/ black powder :D

Offline Flint

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2013, 01:21:59 pm »
Driftwood, what modification was made to accept the new .150 long gas ring.  Did Hap cut a space into  the face of the barrel assembly?  I did a similar mod to the cap & Ball Remington, by installing a gas ring and cutting a relief for it in the frame below the barrel.

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Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2013, 05:53:17 pm »
I believe he did, but I don't remember exactly what he did.

Why don't you call him up and ask him?

http://www.thesmithshop.com/
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Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2013, 01:10:37 am »
Flint, how did you make the relief cut?

Offline John William McCandles

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2014, 06:59:18 am »
Well I went an done it, bought myself a Uberti S&W Schofiled in .45 and 5" barrel. I shoot black powder cartridge in all my other CAS firearms and figured to give this one a go.
So Bushwhacker and myself setup some targets at normal ranges we shoot at our home clubs and went at it. Well 50 rounds later this Schofield was still going strong and might have gone another 50 rounds but the most I've ever normally shot in one day at a match was between 30 or 40 rounds from one revolver.
I prepped the Schofield as I had picked up discussing such with Mr. Strain at the NCOWS Convention this past March. Lube the base pin with bore butter, shoot what the revolver was originally designed for .45 Schofield in a Schofield and .44 Russian in a Russian and keep the loads with in reason. The more powder the more fowling.
The load was what I've been shooting in my Remington conversions FFg Goex in a Schofield case topped with a 170 gr big lube bullet.
So I'm happy with this Schofield, also in shooting the 50 rounds just at steel we only missed two shots. So I think this is a keeper.

Regards
JW
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Offline Virginia Gentleman

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2015, 01:56:13 am »
This has been great information gents!  Thanks!

Offline Flint

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2015, 06:46:14 pm »
Very late in answering a question, but the Remington relief cut was made on a mill, with the barrel removed.
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Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Uberti Schofield and BP
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2019, 12:49:13 am »
I know this thread is a little old, but I do haveca few questions of my own as I am dealing with this same problem. 

1). Does anybody have any photos of what a modified Uberti Schofield looks like after the fact?  Does it look like an odd crude modification or does it look nice and more like the original M3 Schofield with a cut in for the extended gas ring?

2) is this something an average gunsmith can handle or does some special gunsmith halfway across the world need to do it?

3) anybody in Houston that can handle it?

4). How much would such a modification cost?