Author Topic: .56-56 feeding problems  (Read 3382 times)

Offline Dave Fox

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.56-56 feeding problems
« on: February 26, 2019, 04:37:09 PM »
    My .56-56 Spencer refused to feed my Starline brass topped by proper heeled bullets from an old Rapine mould. I put it aside for a couple years and, dragging it out, managed to lose the spring holding the upper and lower breechblocks apart. The replacement spring was noticeably stronger. Took it out today and...voila!...it would feed up to four rounds. More than that and the second round would crowd into the action with the first cartridge, binding it up. I've read some of Gilliam's Raiders here in 1865 loaded eight rounds into the magazine and left out the follower tube, pointing their Spencers muzzle-down to feed, corking up the buttplate opening. Gravity alone fed the cartridges.
   I suspect the magazine spring is too strong. Loaded with more than four cartridges, it is compressed and pushing too hard, forcing the second round into the chamber with the first. What do you experienced shooters think, before I start snipping coils off the follower spring?
    I can't get this #@!!%^# thing to upload a photograph. Sorry.

Offline Rim fire

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2019, 06:21:56 PM »
What is the overall length of your rounds, and what bullet are you using.  You said a rapine mould but which one.  I shoot a 56-56 as well.  My overall length is 1.550 or there abouts.  I use the .535/370 mould with ~33 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss and pistol primers, with a card was between bullet and powder.  I can generally get 2” groups at 50 yards, sometimes better.

Offline El Supremo

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2019, 06:58:20 PM »
Hello, Dave:

Spring strength varies considerably in BOTH originals and repro's, yet they do cycle - eventually.

The "coil block spring" in originals is often slightly weaker than in modern repro's.  
The stronger ones are favored because they assist in mechanical lockup, but can make cycling a bit stiffer.

Original and repro Spencer mainsprings can be anywhere from nice to frustrating in strength.  
I have approx 20 original, inspector marked ones from four sources and the range of stiffness during hammer retraction is WIDE.  Marcot notes large numbers were condemned and replaced.  
I suspect some of the condemned ones are STILL, 165 years later, in spare parts bins.
In originals, I often replace the mainspring with a softer one from Shiloh Sharps.  Drops pull 2# - 4#.

The magazine tube coil spring should never be stretched by pulling it longer.  This ruins it.
If you suspect it is too strong/long, merely withdraw the tube a bit and test cycling until you determine what's happening.  
It can be cut/shortened, but mine VARY in length between 16 5/8" to 17 1/8" (not a typo!) with a wire diameter of .029" to .030".  
ALL work fine IF the dummy rounds are OK.

Couple other things:
The main screw that holds the lever in place can be too tight and NOT appear that way until actual cycling resistance happens.  
Bring it only to shoulder contact and add no more than 1/8 turn.

No way to avoid the RESISTANCE from bullet noses being gouged!  It's part of the game, so test with HARD ALLOY noses that are greased and file away raised edges on the gouges.  After a few cyclings, the gouges become so prevalent that NEW bullets have to be used.  Dummy rounds wear out fast!

Overall, the block coil spring strength should NOT matter if your dummy rounds are of a correct length.  
Mainspring has no bearing on cycling.

Please let us know what happens.  Thanks.

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #3 on: Today at 08:16:20 PM »

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2019, 08:04:01 PM »
If it's any consolation, I went to the range today with my Chiappa Spencer and found out that with 6 rds or more, I could expect the rifle not to feed. It fed fine from the magazine with 5 rds.

This suggests to me that the mag tube spring is too stiff. Just releasing the pressure allowed the rd to feed.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline El Supremo

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2019, 07:47:52 AM »
Hi, PJ:

More about the mag tube spring:

A engineer friend that has a lifetime of making ultra-high spec. COIL springs used in weapons and atomic submarine systems from small to huge shared that it is NOT the static compression that weakens them so much as the CYCLING between uncompressed and compressed, presuming decent metal and temper.  Tempering IS the troublesome aspect.  It ALWAYS varies, so springs of the same rested length can have different strengths. A good coil spring can sit fully compressed for YEARS with no significant weakening.

When we made guns, yep, we designed them to use SECTIONS of either GI ISSUE M1 Garand op rod or 1911 recoil springs because WW II springs were always available and were the BEST quality.  These days, I would ADD Wolf Springs. Many gun makers RELY on Wolf springs, esp for box magazines, where lives are at risk. 

As I shared, I have several with the same alloy and wire OD, BUT of VARYING OAL's that feed first and last rounds just fine and can be swapped between mag tubes AND STILL function fine.  I suspect that it is a temper thing. It IS BECAUSE of temper and length variations, that I got several and fussed with them. 

I suggest NOT cutting it yet.  There are Threads about this topic, BUT I suspect some involved more than one issue instead of only the mag spring tension.  You have feeding resolved, so .....

Instead see if it will "break-in" a little over 50 to 100 cyclings by putting 7 in the butt and running the tube in and out.  Probably won't do much, but better to know.  If it improves, look out because a good one should NOT weaken in such a short interval.  If no better, and that's preferred, see how much of a tube protrusion does help with FIRST and second round feeding.  That will confirm if the spring length should be shortened.  BUT, shortening to get the first couple to feed may THEN cause the LAST one not to feed.  Get first two corrected and you can always put a shim under the butt end of the spring to fine tune length.

Bet a better trigger pull will improve those already nice results.

Kevin

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Offline DJ

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2019, 08:32:57 AM »
You might obtain a spare spring and try that, but unless you're absolutely certain the problem is with the gun, I would work on cartridge variables, such as overall length and bullet shape/crimping and rule those out before altering the gun.

--DJ

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2019, 11:38:15 AM »
I'll work with it first. My current batch of bullets are a harder alloy.

The late Jeff Cooper (USMC) left his wife Janine with a 1911 and several loaded magazines when he went off to war. When he got back he noted that the compressed springs had lost nothing of their strength.

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Coal Creek Griff

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2019, 11:55:01 AM »
I will say that my carbine cycles the first couple of rounds better if the muzzle is slightly elevated.  While it will cycle the rounds with the gun held level, it cycles much more smoothly if the muzzle is slightly elevated for those first couple of rounds. I have felt that that may indicate a overly strong magazine tube spring, but I've been unwilling to cut it. It certainly doesn't feel very strong to the touch and I've been afraid that it would cause cycling problems with last rounds if I weakened it at all. To me, it is simply a minor inconvenience.

CC Griff
Manager, WT Ranch--Coal Creek Division

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Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2019, 12:46:45 PM »
I'll try it ....  :)
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Arizona Trooper

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2019, 08:46:23 PM »
Another cause of double feeds, particularly with a full-ish magazine, is a weak cartridge stop/ramp V spring.

Offline Dave Fox

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2019, 07:39:27 AM »
Friend Trooper, I've a mind to try a replacement "cartridge stop/ ramp V spring", but can't find a listing among the usual dealer suspects. Can you suggest a source?

Offline El Supremo

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2019, 01:58:45 PM »
Hello:

Az Trooper could be busy, so I apologize for jumping in.

Known REPUTABLE sources of original Spencer parts are:

David at Lodgewood Gun Parts in Wisconsin.  CALL him.  

And

Phil at S & S Guns in GLENDALE, NY. Best to email him via his website.  
Or call.  His mother usually answers and can take a phone order.

In either case, be SURE that the short leg of the "V" spring is of FULL length.
All that has to be done is a visual comparison with others.

I have seen a couple that were approx. 1/8" shorter than normal.  
They drove me crazy until I got spares from each of the above and SAW the shorter legs.
Replacement with correct sized ones helped to solve my feeding issues.  

I have posted the following before, but will repeat it here so it is part of this thread:

Marcot shows, on page 30, an early Spencer patent drawing that includes an adjustment "set" screw in the rear, TOP of the receiver to apparently control the cartridge guide "V" spring tension.

No where in Marcot or in any other printed historical information is there a reference to the seemingly widespread existence of a flat head wood screw positioned in the bottom of the hole in the forward top wrist area of the buttstock.  This screw was discovered by Larry Romano when he duplicated the 1860 Spencer.  I have x-rays of several Spencers with this screw clearly revealed.  Others have since found the same screw in originals.  But, not all have it!  Its ONLY function appears to be to control the location/depth of the feed guide "V" spring.

These bits of information tell me that Spencer was sensitive to the location, strength and contact points of that spring.

Regards,
Kevin
Pay attention to that soft voice in your head.

Offline Herbert

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2019, 02:22:35 PM »
I too have found a week cartridge guide spring causes feeding problems

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2019, 12:13:19 PM »
On page 79 of Marcot's book, there is this account:

"Another experiment I have tried with this carbine - in case the spiral spring in the stock does not operate, take it out altogether, load the magazine, put a cork or wooden plug in the butt of the gun, turn the muzzle down vertically, spring the lever and bring it back to it's place and the gun is loaded, ready to fire.

Taking out the magazine spring doesn't disable the gun, because he can fire as rapidly without it and can put in eight cartridges instead of seven, when the spiral spring is removed from the magazine in the stock of the gun."

Col. William Gamble, O/C 8th Illinois Cavalry.

I've tried it and it works - sometimes, not 100%.

I've compressed my "spiral spring" a few hundred times and it seems to be weakening or I'm just getting better at operating the gun.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline El Supremo

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2019, 12:40:54 PM »
Wow:

That's the best straight-man setup line in a long time! 

My response would be:
Only your hairdresser knows for sure.  Haha. 

My guess is your lever technique/conditioned response is improving.

I went from jams to stutters to smooth to butter smooth, once the lever screw wasn't overly tight. 
Have to wonder if those cavalry scouts w Spencers were "smooth operators" at Beechers Island.

Holy cow, where did all those come from. 

Save the last round for yourself.

What I am anxiously awaiting is that PHOTO requested by Two Flints of the THREE serial numbers under the forend.

THAT will be the photo of the year - here.

Smiles,
Kevin
Pay attention to that soft voice in your head.

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2019, 06:03:33 PM »
Wow:

That's the best straight-man setup line in a long time! 

My response would be:
Only your hairdresser knows for sure.  Haha. 

Kevin

For shame! What would your mother think?  ::)

My term for the mag tube spring would be a "coil spring".
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline El Supremo

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2019, 06:23:58 AM »
Just trying to keep you alert in your cold clim's:

I know you rarely bench test, but if you do with the Spencer at 50/100, please share results. Tx.

Also, any luck witb that chamber ring photo, please? Maybe a small bore light would help. Tx.

All the best,

Kevin
Pay attention to that soft voice in your head.

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2019, 06:19:04 PM »
Just got back from the range as it was bright, sunny and 5C.

Shot my Spencer from the bench (Yuck!) at 50m and 100m. At 50m it puts 5 rds into a 2-3/4" group with both smokeless and BP loads.
Knowing it would shoot high and to the left from the bench, I held at the bottom right edge of the target and it printed centre 5-1/2" high.

This is acceptable.

At 100m, my target was a reduced scale police silhouette about the size of a SASS Cowboy minus the legs. In other words, a generous target.

Again holding low and right, I was able to keep all my rds (smokeless and BP) on the silhouette. Calling it a "group" would be generous.
Next I went for the 10"x12" 100m going and by holding low right off the target, was able to smack it repeatedly.

Half way through my shooting I had to use my middle finger (appropriately, I think) to PULL the trigger as squeezing it is next to impossible.

Thus far, my Spencer is proving itself to be a 50m gun, a CAS plinker. It also refused to feed even with 5 rds in the magazine.

My associates are used to seeing me shoot 3-4" groups at 200 and 300m with my Sharps rifles.  I was embarrassed by today's performance.

I will not shoot this gun again until I replace the mainspring. Perhaps that will restore my faith in it. If it doesn't, a Spencer carbine will be on the block.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Dave Fox

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2019, 05:03:57 PM »
Followed several of the recommendations in this thread, notably replacing the cartridge guide spring. Voila! This 1863-date 56-.56 functioned through a full magazine tube of seven rounds, this for the first time in five years of off-and-on fooling with it. It isn't exactly a fine Swiss watch in its functioning, but it is working. Accuracy is quite promising. So happy to have the old girl performing as Mr. Spencer intended. Thanks, fellas.

Offline El Supremo

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Re: .56-56 feeding problems
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2019, 05:12:06 PM »
Great on the ctg feed guide spring:

If possible, please tell us where you got it, if original or repro and if your first one looked different from the one that helped.  Thanks.


Kevin Tinny
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