I wonder about speed shooting and bolts

[riflee]

I've had to stabilize bolts in some single actions that liked to skip past the battery position if they were cocked real fast. I did different things to remedy the problem "depending". The problem seems to be related to another problem of cylinder chambers not exactly aligned with the centerline of the barrel bore too. Two different problems with similar remedies I'd say.


There are an array of afflictions that can cause the problem. SOOOOO......people that do a lot of speed shooting must set their revolvers up to stand the stress of it espeially where the bolts are concerned. Right?     I know the stability of the bolt is important.

Just wondered what the Cowboy Shooters do besides ,maybe, cuss a lot.

[Abilene]

...Just wondered what the Cowboy Shooters do besides ,maybe, cuss a lot.

As long as the timing of the bolt popping up is correct, seems most throwby or over-rotation problems get fixed by making sure neither bolt spring nor hand spring are too light.

[Coffinmaker]

First ... must define "Speed Shooting."  Then,  If the timing is correct, if the Bolt actually fits the cylinder slots, If the bolt actually rises far enough, If the Trigger/Bolt Spring is nice and crisp, If there is an Action Overtravel Stop, 98% of Cowboy shooters will not have a problem with Throw-By.  The trick is finding a gun tuned to meet ALL of these requirements.

If the object of our para more is to be used for Fast Draw (fanning), or the top 2% of Cowboy shooters, the gun may well be run hard enough for the bolt to be deflected by the rotating cylinder.  In that case, a Bolt Block may well be necessary.

Once everything "fits" and "slides" like they should, The next most necessary addition is an overtravel stop.

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[45 Dragoon]

Riflee, Since day one, I've set all my customers revolvers up the same way which includes an action stop and a bolt block. The main reason I do this is because it's "over build".  Nothing wrong with protecting the action parts with an action stop, why shouldn't a S.A. have an action stop? The '73 Peacemaker was designed with a stop built in which shows how important they thought it was!! Most folks would agree that a locked cylinder shouldn't be the " thing" that stops a fast, heavy thumb from torquing the hammer any further back. But, a stop that will physically STOP the hammer itself and keep the hand free (not bound at full cock) will keep "wear and tear" at bay .  .  .  .  and it works every time you cycle the action .  .  .  .  fast or slow!!!  What's not to love about that?!!

   Well, with that mindset, a bolt block works every time as well .  .  .  slow or fast or .  .  .  in a fanner (you can even hear the difference when one is installed!)!! A simple fitted block of steel that just sits by the bolt to do nothing but support the side movement of the bolt ( an excellent, easy answer to an oversized bolt window as well!) and let it do its main job of locking and unlocking the cylinder. It saves frame wear, bolt wear, and cylinder notch wear.

    3 lbs. of tension is plenty for a correctly fitted bolt. Most "out of the box" bolts have between 6-8 lbs which is an excellent way of digging a beauty ring around your cylinder with "throw by" or "mishandling" not mention accelerated wear of the bolt arm and hammer cam.  Making sure the bolt face (tall side) is perpendicular to the horizontal frame line, tall enough to extend to the bottom of the locking notch and of correct width, the bolt block will insure you won't have any throw-by issues. And,  just  for that reason alone, what's not to love about a bolt block?!!

The extra weight of a block is negligible (as is the action stop) and it does so many good things, I don't understand why more folks don't insist on one (action stop as well!!)    You know, a bolt block is an easy way to make a ROA tougher!! That's why I install one in Rugers too!!  (My Rugers are tougher than yours!!!  Lol!!  But then again, so are my open tops and Remington's!! LOL !!!)

Mike

[riflee]

Pretty good replies Cowboy's! Lurkers out there by the millions may be reading yer posts. Newbies by the baskets full.  People wondering and then finding some solutions.


As fer me.....Being a "Kitchen Table Gunsmith" and all I haven't used many action stops. I used the proverbial cylinder trapped by the hand, and the bolt with a bolt block of course. Not the bolt block all the time though. I've used that in an attempt to align chambers with bores and stabilize bolts. I guess I should do some action stops now to keep abreast of all things new and old.


I've never seen a revolver with an action block as it came to me. I'm not up to par with the Action Shooters. Usually when a revolver had way too much over draw I tuned the action better to stop it. I like the hand against the ratchet when the bolt has the cylinder locked in battery. Some guns come from the manufacturer with the hand designed to be a block to the cylinder be loose turning backwards. The double actions can be like that. Of course that doesn't apply here.


I had a job on a Belgian Colt to do where my Buddy wanted the hammer to stop by contacting the backstrap. That took some doing and still end up with a tuned action. I didn't care for that set up and....to make matters worse I own the gun now. Bought it from the Gentleman. It has a nice action and the original owner stated it was the best tuned most positive action he ever pulled the hammer on. That's a relative thing though.

Anywhooooo….I have to admit the action block makes a lot of sense. As does the bolt block. Especially for revolvers used in the Cowboy Action Competitions or Fast Draw Competitions.


I never knew that Colt had an action stop to his SAA revolvers. I'd like to see or hear about that set up. Was it simply that the hammer came to rest against the backstrap? I have a video from AGI about the single actions and the instructor was a Colt employee at one time. I don't remember anything in there about action blocks. Maybe I'm just forgetting it. 


I did see a picture of an action block in a magazine article some where. Oh! It was an article in print about some prominent gunsmith tuning single actions Hmmmmmm….let me remember. I got it. It was some thing like Goones Gunshop I reckon.  Some Hombre named Mike. His real name was 45Dragoon.   Filling a nich in the gunsmithing market. Workin his arse off all the time.         Must be a friend of that Hombre with the handle "CoffinMaker".

You Hombre's are alright in my book. It's a real little book too! I have to respect Folks willing to take the time to explain some about their trade secretes.  Most gunsmiths avoid that. I don't care for that attitude much.  Why not help out your fellow man?

I've had some trouble getting info about some things in the past like casehardening gun parts the real old way. I like doing that now that I found out how to do it. The Double Gun Journal Volume Five Issue 3 Autumn 1994.  A Doctor that does double shotguns wrote the article.  Good reading and explanation of casehardening gun parts.  I've done some of my guns like a Walker for instance. Looks good. The real casehardening is different than what is on the Italian guns we buy today.  It really does harden the parts fer sure. Try to peen in a casehardened hammer by dry firing on the nipples.  Won't work too well. Try wearing out a trigger casehardened the real way. May take a good long time.  I don't have a gunsmith furnace so I just use a wood fire outside like they did in the beginning.

Made my own crucibles to put the parts in and all.

I helped a young man with a dream he had to have his old Belgian Colt restored. It took the proverbial barrel set back (mill the barrel lug) and alignment and action tuned and timed and all that but....I refinished the gun with Nitre Bluing and casehardened the frame and hammer and trigger and loading lever and all that gumbo.  He came to pick up the gun that I had laid on the kitchen table where I was drinking some coffee. We talked and he remarked about how nice my 1860 Army was that was laying there on the table. I let him try the action and all that. He really thought that it was a nice gun.


When I told him it wasn't my gun and that it was his...… he was so happy I can't explain how happy he was.  He could hardly believe it was really his old gun. Made my day.


OK 45dragoon! I have some bolt blocks in some of my guns too soooo.....yer guns aren't tougher than "some of mine". So there... hot shot.  ha ha ha

[45 Dragoon]

I hear ya Riflee!! ('bout  the "tough" guns! Lol)

 Your story about the customer wanting the backstrap to be the action stop is a common thought for some folks but it's not in Colts design for that setup. On some revolvers, it's pretty close but  castings being castings and consistent precise backstrap mounting hole locations make  full cock engagement/backstrap contact with hammer is a little much for an assembly line product in the 19th century.

  The designed action stop in the Mod.P is for the boss material at the mounting pin location on the hand  to contact the "stop surface" or web separating the hand passage/hammer slot. That would be an excellent way of having that happen but because of the above statement, 19th century production wasn't consistent enough. This very subject is how I met Mr. Jim Martin and he explains it pretty much that way. For those of you that have the Kuhnhausen book on Colt S.A.s,  page 193 is devoted to this feature complete with diagrams showing how the stop works. I had never heard of this until I read/saw it and started asking the question!! Finally (probably to get me to shut up about it!) Jim Martin p.m.'d me and had me call him. That's how we met .  .  . 

So, seeing how Colt thought about how important an action stop would be, I decided right then a stop would always go in a tuned revolver from me. Along with a bolt block, it produces a rather "bullet proof" action (as long as all else is set up correctly).  These things along with certain surface angles of certain parts (with consultation with JM) are what allowed me to fan (daily for over 2 1/2 yrs) an Uberti El Patron Comp that I've commented on many times in many forums. It is now owned by someone else and going strong as ever!!

  Anyway, that's my reason for action stops /bolt blocks. They work very well!!

Mike

[LonesomePigeon]

riflee, could you talk a little more about the casehardening process you use? I've read something once about sealing the parts inside a clay crucible, thowing it in a fire and then breaking the crucible open when it's done.


As I understand it the Italian guns have real casehardening but it's done with chemicals and the hardened layer is thinner than true bone-charcoal.

[riflee]

LonesomePigion!!!


I checked my copy of one of the Double Gun Journal books and the one I previously mentioned is the wrong one. That one tells about "rust bluing".


I looked all over for my copy of "The Case Hardening of Firearms" by Osar L. Gaddy" and after a long agitating hunt found the danged thing.


What you mentioned about a clay crucible is the real old way. Wire a small wooden box with parts inside and wrap organic anything around the parts. Has to be dried organic stuff so juice or sap or anything like that won't ozz out on the parts that need to be "clean".

Wrap a ball of clay around the parts in the wood box and throw it in a fire for an hour or two till the parts are red hot for a good while. Small parts can carbonize clean thru so they are red hot for less time(20 minutes or so).

After the parts are red fer awhile then the clay crucible is taken out of the fire and cracked but not broken to pieces. Just cracks (want to keep much oxygen from getting in). Do it quick. Then throw it in water. The water gets in the cracks and quenches the parts.  They then need tempered in an oven for at least two hours at 375-380 degrees. That gets rid of the brittle and makes the parts, as they say. tough.


That is the original way to do the casehardening. The color was the insurance the people had the gunsmiths harden the parts.


I use 3 inch pipe  from the oil industry for steel crucibles. They have screw on caps. One side on the caps I had big nuts welded on to them to use my hook to get them out of the wood fire. I can see the parts inside have to be red once the outside has been red for awhile. I had a flat square of steel welded on the top of the crucible so it can sit in "the stand with a hole in it" without falling thru. The stand holds the crucible above the water. That way I use a rod of steel to unscrew the bottom cap that is an inch above the water so the cap falls in and the parts in the crucible fall in the water too. Need a close drop to the water so not much oxygen gets to the parts. The parts are in the crucible surrounded by wood and bone charcoal so the parts and the charcoal all fall in the water. The parts in intimate contact with the charcoal helps give better colors when it all falls in the water. Using the wood and bone charcoal in the wood box in the clay would be the best way to go too. It's clean and dry and gives off carbon well.


I use a 33 gal. drum to fill with water for the drop. Sometimes I just use a metal bucket too. Depends on the weather. If I have a 33 gal. drum freeze it's water it ruins the drum and since I put some nitrates dissolved and stirred real well in the water I don't want to buy nitrates and only use the nitrated water once. It can be used a lot of times. Nitrates supposedly make fer more "blue color".


Before the quench I use a hoe like fer gardening and churn the water with it down in and up and out and down in and up and out a lot of times because oxygenated water works best.  Get the water off the parts after the quench drop with WD penetrating oil or Blaster penetrating oil.  Then check them out and hope fer some good color. Subdued color is ok though. The real casehardening makes different variations of colors and amounts of color so.....what you get is always the real thing so it's ok.  Lots of color or subdued colors it's all the real thing so it's alright. I think today the case hardening colors like imitation or real is actually too gauwdy or circus like. Too bright.

Basically that's it.      My take on it and the way I do it.  I do cap&ballers but not modern cartridge guns since modern cartridge guns don't have the cylinder containing the pressure. Not knowing the content of carbon already in the steel and casehardening it with a modern gun is too risky. 

I would do an old double shotgun receiver because I can tell it has already been casehardened so doing it again I don't thunk would hurt it. I just wouldn't leave the parts in the red hot stage very long because the carbon is already still mostly there encasing the part.

Anywhoooooo….. Just search for, "The Casehardening of Firearms by Oscar  L. Gaddy". You'll get a very good explanation .


I checked on U-Tube and there are some video of casehardening. The people using the gunsmith furnace and the steel crucible are doing it right. There's some weird stuff there on U-Tube too so be wary.

[riflee]

Wonder if LonesomPigeon got to readin the casehardening stuff up above?

[riflee]

Brownells has a good pamphlet about case hardening.