Author Topic: .428 with .429 bore  (Read 3728 times)

Offline William R. Foster

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.428 with .429 bore
« on: November 27, 2018, 04:55:59 am »
Hey all, i have decided to get chancey and go with a 44WCF revolver and Rifle combo. That being said ill obviously be reloading. The info i have found for the Cimarron Frontier is that its a .429 bore. I cant find any info on the bore size of the Short Rifle they sell. Regardless .429 has been near impossible to find online for a bullet, with .428 being the closest. Will .428 be okay for both revolver and rifle until i get to where i cast my own? Any potential problems? Thanks.

Offline Long Johns Wolf

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2018, 06:52:58 am »
FWIW: I am shooting .44 Colt ammo through my pair of Uberti .44 Special Colt 1873 SAAs.
The bullets are .428"/200 grainers.
I am using the same bullets for the Uberti Win 73 rifle.
Why?
Because .429"/200 grain bullets gave me cycling issues in the rifle due to its tight chamber.
Accuracy is more than sufficient at CAS distances from both pistols and rifle.
Long Johns Wolf
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Offline William R. Foster

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2018, 07:00:54 am »
Would you consider the accuracy good enough for hunting distances? My rifle at the least will play dual roles.

Offline Long Johns Wolf

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2018, 07:22:23 am »
Up to 150 yards from my rifle will be OK with the .428"/200 grainers.
My decision to load the .428" and not the .429 was based on the cycling issues.
If the rifling groove dia of your lever gun is .429" and it will reliably chamber the .429ers you will probably get better accuracy loading the .429ers.
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Offline William R. Foster

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2018, 07:40:20 am »
Up to 150 yards from my rifle will be OK with the .428"/200 grainers.
My decision to load the .428" and not the .429 was based on the cycling issues.
If the rifling groove dia of your lever gun is .429" and it will reliably chamber the .429ers you will probably get better accuracy loading the .429ers.
Long Johns Wolf


I cant seem to FIND .429 anywhere.

Offline Long Johns Wolf

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2018, 09:03:49 am »
.429" is the regular size dia of .44 Colt, Magnum, Russian or Special bullets.
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Offline William R. Foster

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2018, 10:20:28 pm »
Thanks. It will be some time before i gain a rifle (july-aug of 19). So in the time being ill only be loading for my revolver. Would .428 have decent performance in it you figure? Cant find any hard data on what they tend to slug out to. Id like one bullet/load data for both in the end. Plan is starline brass, MO .428 200grainers, and more than likely Unique powder with a CCI 300.

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2018, 12:00:39 am »
  I would never use an undersized lead bullet, you're asking for trouble in the form of leading. When in doubt, bigger is better where cast bullets are concerned.

 Cimarron/Uberti use a .429" groove diameter in their 44-40 revolvers and rifles.

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/bore-groove-twist/

 I have a Uberti Sporting Rifle in 44-40 and size my bullets .430". They chamber fine and are plenty accurate out to 200 yds.

 





 ...and not bad at 300, considering the L-R breeze I was fighting-

 

  Revolvers are an entirely different matter. One needs to be more concerned about the diameter of the cylinder throats than the groove. I shoot tons of .44 Special in three different Uberti/Cimarron's and recently switched from sizing .430" to sizing .432". This change helped reduce leading significantly and had no negative effect on accuracy.

  I've only fired 44-40 out of revolvers a little. My oldest Uberti came to me a s a 44-40 and I later fitted a .44 Special cylinder. I could never get and meaningful accuracy out of it with .430" bullets. On a whim I tried the same bullets sized .432" and everything came together.

  Missouri Bullet Company has a bullet that looks as though it'd work perfectly in a 44-40 and they offer it in .430"-
 
]http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=63&category=5&secondary=12]

 That's where I'd start.

 The bullet I use in my 44-40 is a 220 gr. RNFP I cast. I load it over 9.0-9.5 grs. of Unique, Power Pistol or Herco

 

   Worked well on deer too!

 

  CHT
 



Offline William R. Foster

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2018, 12:21:42 am »
THANK YOU. So, all of that info being said, what dies do you load with? Santa is brinhing me a Lee 3 dies set and a factory crimp die for 44-40. Will that die set handle loading the .430 without anything extra?


  I would never use an undersized lead bullet, you're asking for trouble in the form of leading. When in doubt, bigger is better where cast bullets are concerned.

 Cimarron/Uberti use a .429" groove diameter in their 44-40 revolvers and rifles.

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/bore-groove-twist/

 I have a Uberti Sporting Rifle in 44-40 and size my bullets .430". They chamber fine and are plenty accurate out to 200 yds.

 





 ...and not bad at 300, considering the L-R breeze I was fighting-

 

  Revolvers are an entirely different matter. One needs to be more concerned about the diameter of the cylinder throats than the groove. I shoot tons of .44 Special in three different Uberti/Cimarron's and recently switched from sizing .430" to sizing .432". This change helped reduce leading significantly and had no negative effect on accuracy.

  I've only fired 44-40 out of revolvers a little. My oldest Uberti came to me a s a 44-40 and I later fitted a .44 Special cylinder. I could never get and meaningful accuracy out of it with .430" bullets. On a whim I tried the same bullets sized .432" and everything came together.

  Missouri Bullet Company has a bullet that looks as though it'd work perfectly in a 44-40 and they offer it in .430"-
 
]http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=63&category=5&secondary=12]

 That's where I'd start.

 The bullet I use in my 44-40 is a 220 gr. RNFP I cast. I load it over 9.0-9.5 grs. of Unique, Power Pistol or Herco

 

   Worked well on deer too!

 

  CHT
 




Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2018, 06:14:49 am »
THANK YOU. So, all of that info being said, what dies do you load with? Santa is brinhing me a Lee 3 dies set and a factory crimp die for 44-40. Will that die set handle loading the .430 without anything extra?



  I've used a new set of RCBS and a n Lyman set, both worked fine and I bet the Lee dies will work too.

 CHT

Offline William R. Foster

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 06:50:16 am »
Awesome. Thanks.

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 10:33:58 am »
I use a larger inside neck collar at .429 for my LEE dies in .44-40. I swapped it from LEE .44 mag dies, and use it as an "M" die to slightly funnel the case mouth and insert the base of the .428 bullet by hand before seating followed up by a LEE collet factory crimp die.

You might have to try a few combinations to get it to work for your particular case.

If chambering remains a problem, changing cases might help as some have thinner necks than others. (As I recall W-W seem to be thinest.)
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Offline Coal Creek Griff

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 01:39:20 pm »
I use a standard Lee set with the collet-type factory crimp die.  I don't use a different expander, but it works fine for me.

On the other hand, to get the rounds to drop freely into my revolver chambers, I did remove some metal from the bottom of the sizing die.  That allows the shoulder to be bumped back slightly more than previously.  I have five 44 WCF guns and I was looking for complete interchangeability.

I've found that, with this cartridge in particular, it may take some experimenting to find what works best in your guns.  There are tons of different ways of doing things and my way won't necessarily work for you.  I find it worth it, though.  Note that I keep buying more guns in that caliber...

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Offline Abilene

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2018, 03:35:57 pm »
I use a larger inside neck collar at .429 for my LEE dies in .44-40. I swapped it from LEE .44 mag dies, and use it as an "M" die to slightly funnel the case mouth and insert the base of the .428 bullet by hand before seating followed up by a LEE collet factory crimp die.

You might have to try a few combinations to get it to work for your particular case.

If chambering remains a problem, changing cases might help as some have thinner necks than others. (As I recall W-W seem to be thinest.)

I did the same, as I was loading .429 bullets to start in 44-40.  Winchester brass (Starline and Black Hills or BHA also thin necks.  R-P, PMC, and others too thick).  But later I switched to .427 bullets.  Still using the .429 expander, though.  The .427 bullets perform fine in my Uberti carbine and two pistols.

Offline Tater Pickens

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2018, 09:38:52 pm »
Springfield Slim aka Mark Whyte sells 44's in .429.

Check him out at www.whyteleatherworks.com.

Tater Pickens

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2018, 09:47:09 pm »
I've shot a lot of .427 in .429 bores for CAS with no issues. That said .429 bullets are easy to obtain as others have posted sources.
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Offline Yeso Bill

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2018, 01:21:43 am »
My 3 brass Uberti's measure .4295" and when I started shooting the first one, I ordered Desperado's soft bullets (8-9 BH) in .430" in 200 gr. and 240 gr. and experienced no problems.

http://cowboybullets.com/44-Caliber_c_10.html

I didn't shoot a lot of them.  Maybe 200.  Much lower SD's using BP convinced me to quit playing with smokeless and I changed to the Accurate 43-230 C bullet for more lube.  Those bullets will average 236.7 - .8 grains using 30:1.    

The 200 Meter group below was shot with OE III BP and the Accurate bullets sized to .431".  The load contained a .030 veg. wad.  They will fit in my Uberti pistols, barely.

Billy

PS.  I'm not so convinced that it is the bullet / bore relationship as it is a bullet / chamber relationship.  These soft bullets bump up and squeeze down.  I think you want enough bullet (width) so that the bullet has a better chance of entering the barrel straight.  As Cholla says, "Bigger is better", but the gun needs to chamber the shells too.   :)  I have never had a problem with leading.

In order to keep the cases straight (for minimum bullet run - out) I have tried every expander I can get my hands on and have had the best luck with Noe expanders set loose in a Lee powder die.  The one I'm using is a .427 x .431" and after case spring-back, the ID is about .4285.

I've tried the case / bullet tension from O to .004" and they all seem to shoot real good until that 4th or 5th shot.   ;D

  
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 05:16:05 am by Yeso Bill »

Offline William R. Foster

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2018, 08:29:40 am »
Contacted Cimarron to see if they could give any info as to cylinder throat size. Figured it was worth a shot. Funny thing, they “greatly discourage shooting reloads through their guns and that any info they have is posted on their website. I assume this is for legal liability. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2018, 08:39:43 am »
Contacted Cimarron to see if they could give any info as to cylinder throat size. Figured it was worth a shot. Funny thing, they “greatly discourage shooting reloads through their guns and that any info they have is posted on their website. I assume this is for legal liability. 🤷🏼‍♂️

  Uberti/Cimarron does a very good.job with their cylinder throats. I have a very new Uberti 44-40, I'll try to remember to measure the cylinder throats when I get home.

 CHT

Offline William R. Foster

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2018, 08:45:21 am »
  Uberti/Cimarron does a very good.job with their cylinder throats. I have a very new Uberti 44-40, I'll try to remember to measure the cylinder throats when I get home.

 CHT

That would be great. Thank you.

Offline Trailrider

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2018, 09:31:52 am »
First of all, the reason Uberti/Cimarron "discourage" the use of reloads through their guns has to do with their product liability exposure.  Since they can't control the loads that handloaders might put in their guns, they don't want to be responsible for blowups. Good, standard loads listed in the Lyman handbooks should be fine.  Just do NOT go ABOVE or BELOW the range of loads shown in those manuals.

I've used Master Craft bullets for years. They can size to anything from .427" to .431". They show a 205 grain bullet, but say they are not to be used in Winchester 1866 or '73's!  Not sure why that is, unless it has to do with the shape of the bullet and feeding. (The bullets I got from them years ago, and still have a good supply weigh out at 213.5 gr, but they no longer show those on their website. They have a 200 gr. bullet, but don't show the shape. Best would be to contact them directly.

I use .430" bullets in my M1860 Military Henry (Navy Arms), and '92 Rossi's in both .44-40 and .44 Mangle-em, as well as my Old Model Ruger Vaqueros (with the TIGHT .425" throats in .44-40...they are hard-cast and squeeze down through the throats, but re-exoand when they enter the forcing cones!  ??? ).  I use regular (not the Cowboy) RCBS .44-40 dies, with the expander plug from the .44 Magnum dies (ordered separately), and Winchester brass, which is thinner.  If .429-.430 bullets and Winchester brass won't chamber, then you might have to go to .428".  Hope this helps.
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2018, 09:54:54 am »

I have a simple question.  Numerous times, I have seen the claim that once a bullet is swaged down (reduced) in diameter it immediately pops back to it's former diameter??  After having swaged bullets to size for many years and having them remain the size swaged to, I can't quite get my head around to bullets that pop back to previous size after passing thru a tight throat??

Like wise, I don't buy into the claim that undersize bullets "bump up" to groove diameter when fired.  Undersize bullets remain undersize bullets.  Bullets that pass thru a "too small" throat stay too small.

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2018, 10:21:25 am »
I have a simple question.  Numerous times, I have seen the claim that once a bullet is swaged down (reduced) in diameter it immediately pops back to it's former diameter??  After having swaged bullets to size for many years and having them remain the size swaged to, I can't quite get my head around to bullets that pop back to previous size after passing thru a tight throat??

Like wise, I don't buy into the claim that undersize bullets "bump up" to groove diameter when fired.  Undersize bullets remain undersize bullets.  Bullets that pass thru a "too small" throat stay too small.

  Let me address this backwards....

  Bullets can and do bump up, it's called obturation. The expanding gasses from the burning powder smack the bullet in the hind end, while the front of the bullet is meeting  resistance from air or atmosphere, so in essence the bullet is being squashed by two opposing forces, which causes it to get "fatter". Dave Scovill of Handloader magazine demonstrated this by removing the barrel from a Colt SAA revolver (45 Colt), firing a cartridge loaded with one of the soft 250 gr. RNFP's and catching it in some soft material that did not damage the bullet. He then mic'ed the bullet and its diameter was roughly the same as the throat of the chamber from which the cartridge was fired; .456" as i recall. That said, there has to be a certain ratio of pressure to bullet hardness for this to occur. In other words you can't fired a hard lead bullet from a low pressure load and expect any obturation. A fellow named Veral Smith wrote an excellent book on cast bullets and somehow came up with a multplier (that escapes my memory) by which one can calculate the chamber pressure required to obturate a bullet of a given Bhn hardness. The late John Korth, who posted on this forum, likewise demonstrated that the old Winchester rifles with their often oversize bores, we're still capable of accuracy because the soft lead bullets would obturate to fill the grooves. Sort of the same principal as the hollow base bullets used in muzzleloaders.

  That said,  I agree with you on the first part, once a bullet, fired from a revolver, exits the cylinder and the gasses for the most part escape through the BC gap, the bullet will not increase in size as most of the needed pressure has already escaped.

  CHT

Offline William R. Foster

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2018, 07:57:30 pm »
  Uberti/Cimarron does a very good.job with their cylinder throats. I have a very new Uberti 44-40, I'll try to remember to measure the cylinder throats when I get home.

 CHT

Any chance you snagged those measurements?

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: .428 with .429 bore
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2018, 08:26:27 pm »
Any chance you snagged those measurements?

 Good grief! I got busy and forgot!

Measured two throats and they were both right at .430"



 CHT
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 03:14:09 am by Cholla Hill Tirador »