Author Topic: Cimarron's new American model!  (Read 37159 times)

Offline Johnson Barr

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #200 on: September 06, 2020, 12:06:34 PM »
I just skipped back through the postings and see that the R-M in question has a cylinder actually chambered for .44 Colt cartridges. Nice! My R-M's are marked .44 Colt, but the cylinders chamber .44 S&W Special cases. That being said, back to the .44 S&W Russian cartridge cases. I use them exclusively to replicate, as close as possible, the .44 Henry Flat central fire cartridges of the day. I also shoot the same loads in my 1860 Henry carbine with a modified carrier block. There's no way to work around the .429 bores, so the .44 S&W Russian cases get me as close as possible to the Henry Flat cartridge.     
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Offline Books OToole

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #201 on: September 07, 2020, 09:11:09 AM »
I just skipped back through the postings and see that the R-M in question has a cylinder actually chambered for .44 Colt cartridges. Nice! My R-M's are marked .44 Colt, but the cylinders chamber .44 S&W Special cases. That being said, back to the .44 S&W Russian cartridge cases. I use them exclusively to replicate, as close as possible, the .44 Henry Flat central fire cartridges of the day. I also shoot the same loads in my 1860 Henry carbine with a modified carrier block. There's no way to work around the .429 bores, so the .44 S&W Russian cases get me as close as possible to the Henry Flat cartridge.   

I started my .44 Russian odyssey when I acquired an original S&W DA 44.  Then I had a 66 tweaked to cycle .44 Russians.  I have subsequently acquired a RM conversion and a pair of Open Tops and a Henry; all firing Russians. 

Maybe in the future I'll be able to add an S&W American in .44 Russian.

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Offline Johnson Barr

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #202 on: September 07, 2020, 12:25:53 PM »
Already have my name on the 3B waiting list for an 8" in .44 Russian. Patience, patience, patience....
"Peace is that glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading"  -Thomas Jefferson

Offline The Pathfinder

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #203 on: September 07, 2020, 12:57:18 PM »
Johnson, I'm right there with you. As you say, "patience, patience, patience." ah hell, patience my a**, I'm gonna go shoot something.  ;D

Offline U.S.M.R.

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #204 on: September 25, 2020, 10:48:37 AM »
Cimarron has them for sale on their website.

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #205 on: Today at 11:55:57 PM »

Offline Dave T

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #205 on: September 25, 2020, 05:23:06 PM »
Books & Johnson,

Please explain how your are shooting 44 Russians in your Henrys? I would love to have a Henry chambered for the 44 Russian to do exactly what Johnson described, i.e. duplicate performance of the 44 Henry Flat.

Dave

Offline Johnson Barr

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #206 on: September 26, 2020, 12:59:51 PM »
You will need a modified carrier to handle the shorter cartridges. I sent my Henry carrier to Bill English at 'The Smith Shop' for conversion. At the time he did not have any Henry carriers in stock. Once you have a modified carrier in hand you will need to remove a small amount of metal from the modified carrier 'toggle' side of the Bolt face. Maybe a 1/16" flattened with a mill bastard file to allow the Bolt to travel past the modified bolt carrier 'toggle'. Books' 1866 carbine is chambered for .44 S&W Special so he had no problems with .44 S&W Russian brass. In my case my 1860 Henry carbine is chambered for .44-40.  The .44 S&W Russian cases will chamber and eject with no problems in the .44-40 chamber. What happens next is that the Russian cases will 'fire form' to the .44-40 chamber the first time you fire them. A slight tapered bulge will be noticeable. These now became dedicated cases for my Henry carbine conversion. When re-loading I do not resize these dedicated cases. A universal de-capping die is used. Cases are filled an 1/8" short of the case mouth with 2Fg and a .429"-200gr. RNFP cast bullet then seated. Bob's your Uncle!   
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #207 on: September 26, 2020, 02:04:39 PM »
...What happens next is that the Russian cases will 'fire form' to the .44-40 chamber the first time you fire them. A slight tapered bulge will be noticeable. These now became dedicated cases for my Henry carbine conversion. When re-loading I do not resize these dedicated cases. A universal de-capping die is used. ...

I recall someone else in the past had reported shooting Russians in their .44wcf Henry.  Some folks are going "oh nooo!  dangerous!" but he had no problem.  I was wondering about the resizing / reloading part.  Dedicated brass makes sense.   What crimp die?

Offline Dave T

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #208 on: September 26, 2020, 04:04:59 PM »
An 1860 or an 1866 chambered for 44 Special would be slicker than puppy poop on a freshly mopped tile floor! (smile)

Dave

Offline Johnson Barr

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #209 on: September 27, 2020, 01:26:03 PM »
I modified a Lee .44 Russian crimp die using a die grinder and stone to 'flare' the die opening to except the 'bulged' brass. Dies are available from the Lee site separately. My dedicated 'Russian Henry' set includes a .44 Russian shell holder, a universal de-capping die, a universal case mouth expander die and the 'flared' .44 Russian crimp die. The universal de-capping and case mouth flare dies come in handy for other projects.
"Peace is that glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading"  -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #210 on: Today at 11:55:57 PM »

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #210 on: September 27, 2020, 02:47:50 PM »

 :)  Hi Guys   ;)

I have been frustrated with Uberti for years.  Way back, Uberti actually made some 1860 Henry Rifles in 44 Special.  I even had one in my hands for an action job.  I tried by best to buy it.  Guy had no sense of humor.  Wouldn't budge.

Ergo, my solution for the Henry has been guns chambered in 45 Colt.  Then I run a Smith Shop carrier for C45S brass.  Works a treat.  Real close ballistically to 44 Henry Flat.  Was never a fan of running 44 russian brass in a 44-40 chamber.  Can be done.  Has been done.  Not my favorite flavor.  Most in the Gun Plumbing business would discourage this practice.  Case rupture is a very real possibility.

Stay Well and Be of Good Cheer

Offline Johnson Barr

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #211 on: September 28, 2020, 12:40:05 PM »
I am familiar with the .45CS conversion carrier running in toggle link rifles chambered for .45 Colt. Can you speak about 'blow-by'? Are the 45CS loads just as problematic?   Just for giggles I ran some .45 CS cases into my .44-40 dies thinking that might be a way around using .44 Russian brass. The .45CS took the .44-40 taper just fine but created a 'belt' at the case web just above the rim. Turning the 'belt' down to allow for chambering was a thought, but I opted to continue with my dedicated .44 Russian cases.   To date the blackpowder fire formed Starline cases have not ruptured or split at the case mouth. The original 250 cases I started with are still running fine after two years regular use and a box plus will be put to work this weekend at the Bergers second Saturday monthly match.
"Peace is that glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading"  -Thomas Jefferson

Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #212 on: September 30, 2020, 04:49:23 PM »
I have a .44 Spl 66 that 3B tweaked the extractor and it handles .44 Colt  like a breeze.  It holds 15.  Duplicating the .44 Henry Flat and .46 RF Remington was my reasoning behind lobbying for the .45 CB Spl to be allowed by NCOWS.
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Offline reno

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #213 on: October 01, 2020, 10:30:32 AM »
Just wondering as I see 4 or 5 dealers selling Cimarron's American Model on auction sights, all in 45 Colt, from $998 to $1178 and dealer price is $921 and I am on the list for a 44 S&W or Spl. and find it strange that Cimarron is known for saying their firearms are like the originals, and they are, and the first caliber they come with is the 45 Colt instead of a 44 caliber as the originals. I have dealt with Cimarron for many years, and now find it hard to find a Conversion straight from them in 44 Colt. It's just I have never seen and we all know that there never was an S&W American, 73, or 66 Winchester in 45 Colt caliber. , and none of the rifles were in 44 S&W for that matter, only 44 Rimfire and 44/40 WCF.  I have seen in the past years everyone is going to the 45 cal. and understand why. Just wondering why we in CAS are not staying closer to the original calibers and I know they are a little harder to reload and I hope I did not unset any 45 cal. shooters just my thoughts. I shoot many 45 SAAs myself.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #214 on: October 01, 2020, 11:45:54 AM »
Reno, it is just as you notice, strictly a business decision.  .45 Colt and .357 guns outsell all others by a large margin.  Those of us who want something in the original caliber (or close) are in the minority.  Even after Cimarron starts getting in .44's they will always have lots more .45's on order.  Same with rifles.

Offline Black River Smith

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #215 on: October 01, 2020, 12:52:43 PM »
Reno,

You have stated the difference between NCOWS and the SASS groups.  When I joined NCOWS in 1998 it was for the authenticity desire.  Before that I shot CAS locally and worked towards authenticity of the era.  At the end of my shooting I was a member shooting in the Originals group, being the 2nd member to sign/join up after the 3 originators.

I used firearms that represented originals, original 1873 rifle but an EMF SAA 1873 and then a Cimarron OM 1873 all in 44/40.  Then a 1866 rifle (44/40 because 44Spcl was not available in 2001) and an 1872 OT (44RUS).  Now, even though I do not know a dealer to get a lower pricing, I still will get an American in 44SPCL firing 44RUS.  Back at my first NCOWS Nationals several members I talked with all had a wish for this particular Model for its' uniqueness and looks.

What Abilene has stated is what I have observed from the comments on several sites.  What is easy to shoot fast with light recoil.  So 38's and 45's have become the most popular and sometime the only caliber options from manufactures.
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Offline Niederlander

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #216 on: October 01, 2020, 01:35:56 PM »
I've often wondered why the American Model wasn't reproduced much sooner.  When you look at photographs from the early '70's, it was "THE" big bore cartridge sixgun on the frontier, at least until the Colt SAA became available in large numbers.  It's too rich for my blood, but an American would pair perfectly with a Henry or '66.
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Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #217 on: October 01, 2020, 02:48:27 PM »
Johnson Barr, the only way to get away from blow by with th 45 CS or any other .45 with BP is to anneal the cases.  I have annealed all of my .45 Schofield cases and some of my .44 Colt cases to slow up/stop the blow by. 
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Offline reno

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #218 on: October 01, 2020, 06:03:33 PM »
Maybe I am getting to old at 76 as I seem to like the older calibers, I like them all and have been in NCOWS a while # 810 and like everything about the sport and the people. Sure like the original firearms.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Cimarron's new American model!
« Reply #219 on: October 01, 2020, 07:28:25 PM »
Maybe I am getting to old at 76 as I seem to like the older calibers, I like them all and have been in NCOWS a while # 810 and like everything about the sport and the people. Sure like the original firearms.
Thanks

Just means you have good taste.   :)

 

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