Author Topic: 45 Colt with pep.  (Read 4662 times)

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2018, 04:06:16 pm »
Just a little confused here.  Just exactly what does your combined overall length have to do with your velocity or pressure or the phase of the moon??

In your particulars, your combined overall length will be completely governed by the length of the Carrier Block in your '73.  You will achieve correct OAL simply by crimping into the crimp groove for any bullets you describe.

For finding a load, other than what are called cowboy loads, READ THE MANUALS.  There exist a plethora of load data well within SAAMI limits for the 45 colt round.  ANY load you find published in reloading manuals are within SAAMI recommendation unless specifically listed for Ruger or TC.  And the data flagged for "Ruger" is intended for the original sized Rugers.  NOT the "New Vaquero"

It's unfortunate you don't wish to deal with the cleanup of BP.  Dealing with the cleanup of BP in cartridge guns is actually easer than dealing with smokeless cleanup.  The difference is simply, you HAVE to cleanup after BP.

All of which brings me to a final thought.  So far, you have found fault with everything suggested.  Which leads me to believe you are either playing Devil's Advocate or your just TROLLING.  Are you just a TROLL??  

 Not sure who you're addressing here....

 Cartridge overall length definitely affects pressures and subsequently velocities; not how much of the bullet is out of the case, but how much is IN the case. The deeper a bullet is seated in a case, the less space there is for expanding gas from the burned powder, which increases pressure, which increases velocity.

  Because most .45 caliber lead bullets, were designed to be loaded in revolvers, their crimp grooves are too far back to permit a cartridge length (<1.6") that will function in a '66 or '73 lever rifle. The Lee bullets I illustrated are an exception. The bullet original to the 45 Colt will also work, but it has no crimp groove and will likely telescope back in the case unless it's seated on top of a charge of powder such as black powder or a super slow burning smokeless powder.

  Manuals are a great source of reference, but most of the data therein is developed in special test equipment such as universal receivers with longer than standard barrels. For their .357 Magnum, .44 Special and 45 Colt data, Hodgdon used 10", 8" and 7.25" barrels, respectively. As a result, velocities are rarely close to those in actual revolvers and a chronograph has bore this out for me time and again.

  I don't find not wanting to clean BP unfortunate in the least. I love shooting BP, especially out of my lever rifles, and they're fairly simple to clean, not as easy as with smokeless, but not bad. Revolvers on the other hand are a pain. I have the utmost respect for those of you who shoot BP in your revolvers. You are patient men!

 CHT

  

Offline Roscoe

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2018, 05:01:58 pm »
Not sure who you're addressing here....

 Cartridge overall length definitely affects pressures and subsequently velocities; not how much of the bullet is out of the case, but how much is IN the case. The deeper a bullet is seated in a case, the less space there is for expanding gas from the burned powder, which increases pressure, which increases velocity.

  Because most .45 caliber lead bullets, were designed to be loaded in revolvers, their crimp grooves are too far back to permit a cartridge length (<1.6") that will function in a '66 or '73 lever rifle. The Lee bullets I illustrated are an exception. The bullet original to the 45 Colt will also work, but it has no crimp groove and will likely telescope back in the case unless it's seated on top of a charge of powder such as black powder or a super slow burning smokeless powder.

  Manuals are a great source of reference, but most of the data therein is developed in special test equipment such as universal receivers with longer than standard barrels. For their .357 Magnum, .44 Special and 45 Colt data, Hodgdon used 10", 8" and 7.25" barrels, respectively. As a result, velocities are rarely close to those in actual revolvers and a chronograph has bore this out for me time and again.

  I don't find not wanting to clean BP unfortunate in the least. I love shooting BP, especially out of my lever rifles, and they're fairly simple to clean, not as easy as with smokeless, but not bad. Revolvers on the other hand are a pain. I have the utmost respect for those of you who shoot BP in your revolvers. You are patient men!

 CHT

  

I have data for my use of four different RNFP bullets in 45 Colt, one of then 200 grain and the rest 250-255, and none of them has a COL close to 1.600, when crimped in the crimp groove.

Offline Abilene

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2018, 07:03:51 pm »
The 200gr and 250gr RNFP bullets sold by a majority of commercial casters both have OAL of 1.58, crimped in the groove.  That is handy for switching between the two without having to adjust the seating die.

Offline Roscoe

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2018, 08:32:15 pm »
The 200gr and 250gr RNFP bullets sold by a majority of commercial casters both have OAL of 1.58, crimped in the groove.  That is handy for switching between the two without having to adjust the seating die.

My Magnus and Xtreme 250 RNFP have COL of 1.580-1.588, given trim length of 1.270-1.275.

Online Professor Marvel

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2018, 08:47:05 pm »
My Good Netizens -

I believe that in his response below,

Just a little confused here.  Just exactly what does your combined overall length have to do with your velocity or pressure or the phase of the moon??
....
....
All of which brings me to a final thought.  So far, you have found fault with everything suggested.  Which leads me to believe you are either playing Devil's Advocate or your just TROLLING.  Are you just a TROLL??  

Coffin is referring to Herr Foster's remarks seen earlier:

Thanks all. I dont intend to load with BP. Just dont have the heart to deal with the clean up. Years of muzzleloader competition cured me of the desire to clean it up.  Maybe in the future, but for now im sticking with smokeless. I believe my plan based off loading guides a buddy lent me is 9gr of Unique with a 250gr lead round nose at 1.60 OAL.

and

I may drop to 8gr and a 1.57OAL for a bit more FPS.

His comments suggest that Herr Foster seems to grasp the concept that increased depth increases pressure (and thus all else being the same, velocity), but  in the practical world I doubt that  .03" of depth would offset a full grain of unique.

This is how I read it, and I suspect a misunderstanding of loading dynamics, but perhaps Coffin took it
ummm
otherwise....

Herr Foster has not been back for a few days, perhaps he can clarify when he returns.

yhs
prof marvel
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 08:49:28 pm by Professor Marvel »
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Offline willy

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2018, 09:10:44 pm »
Speer reloading manual #10 lists loads that do not exceed the max industry loading pressure of 15,000 for the 45 colt.
.The max load for a 200 gr. lead bullet is 9.5 gr. of Unique for 1054 fps from a 5 1/2" barrel Colt SAA revolver.
If you step up to a 250gr. lead bullet you can load 8.5 gr. Unique for 898 fps from the same gun.

Offline William R. Foster

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2018, 07:36:14 pm »
Sorry folks. Been gone WAY too long. I am not a troll by any means. My comment of OAL changing FPS was based off of load data i received from a friends loading book. I will attempt to find a photo of it but highly doubtful i will. As to loading with BP i have just had bad experience (teachings?) with BP clean up that has resulted in very poor lifespan of some front stuffing firearms. Now granted that was all with BP substitues. BP is hard to source local to me as well, where as i can pick up trail boss or the like less than 20min from my house. So i will more than likely end up going with smokeless in the long term. Thank you for all who have given me solid starting point data. I hope to begin loading after the first of the year.

Online Professor Marvel

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2018, 02:27:18 am »
As to loading with BP i have just had bad experience (teachings?) with BP clean up that has resulted in very poor lifespan of some front stuffing firearms. Now granted that was all with BP substitues.

Ah, that would most likely be the Pyrodex sub - please check out this link about cleaning Pyro and it's ilk:

Regarding the Cleaning of Guns After the Use of Pyrodex and 777:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,56362.0.html

Quote
BP is hard to source local to me as well, where as i can pick up trail boss or the like less than 20min from my house. So i will more than likely end up going with smokeless in the long term. Thank you for all who have given me solid starting point data. I hope to begin loading after the first of the year.

You might try APP, aka Black MZ  it is cheap , only $10 a bottle at Sportsmans Warehouse and is said to be easier to clean and
far less corrosive than the perchlorate residue in Pyrodex.

good luck on your quest

prof marvel
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Offline William R. Foster

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2018, 04:39:22 am »
Thank you. I will check that out as well. If i can find a BP solution that eases my heart and mind id certainly be open to it.

Offline Lumpy Grits

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2018, 08:02:16 am »
.45 Colt load-
8.0-9.0 gn of Unique under a 230-260 gn lead bullet.
Use a firm roll crimp into the crimp groove of the bullet.
Std primer.
LG
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2018, 09:49:09 am »

Don't look now.  I'm pretty sure Lumpy uses Unique to Brush his Teeth..   ::)

Offline Lumpy Grits

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2018, 10:26:58 am »
Don't look now.  I'm pretty sure Lumpy uses Unique to Brush his Teeth..   ::)

That's supposed to be a secret..... ;D

LG
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Offline Drydock

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2018, 06:27:11 pm »
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2018, 06:35:23 pm »
For $30 per year one can access all the loads in Scovill's book plus tens of thousands of others in countless calibers, sorted every way imaginable, and print them out.

https://loaddata.com

  I've had a subscription for several years and use it extensively.

  CHT

Offline Grapeshot

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Re: 45 Colt with pep.
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2019, 09:03:47 pm »
Hey all, im trying to come up with a general starting load for both a 5.5” SAA clone and 73 clone. I know 45lc wasnt an original 73 chambering, but it is what it is. That being said, id like to load a round with a little more pep behind it than the standard cowboy rounds that way i get a bit more out of the rifle. Im a fan of one load for both to keep it simple. Ideally id like to be around the 900-950fps mark with a 200gr LRN/FP. The suggestion from cimarron was to not exceed SAAMI spec on the SAA. So thats where im at. Anyone loading something similar with verified chrono readings?

Thanks

You want a load for the Winchester '73 clone that has more zip and stays within SAMMI Specs?  OK.  Here is on for you.  You are using a 200gr. RNFP.  I would use 9 grains of Unique or 17 grains of 2400.  Both will give your .45 Colt rifle a boost in velocity.  You could also load a 40 grain compressed charge of 2Fg Black Powder.  I use Goex but you can pick your own poison.  That charge will give you muzzle blast, fire ball, and beau coup smoke.
Listen!  Do you hear that?  The roar of Cannons and the screams of the dying.  Ahh!  Music to my ears.