Author Topic: Closer yet .... ?  (Read 572 times)

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Closer yet .... ?
« on: April 03, 2019, 03:04:59 pm »
In the current issue of "The Cowboy Chronicle", there is an article about a possee off Kiwis that hit several CAS events, culminating in the "End of Trail" match. Here's a quote:

"Thursday we were in the first four main match stages. Pistol targets were up real close at THREE TO FOUR YARDS (with absolutely no splatter back at the shooter), shotgun at about seven yards, and rifle from seven to fifteen yards.
The close targets shocked one or two of the Kiwis who were shooting here for the first time, but they soon grew to love them. Times were fast with the fast Cowboys able to clean a stage in ten to fourteen seconds."

The game has sure devolved from the day when you had to be able to shoot and not just point in the general direction of the target. On this side of the pond, steel cannot be closer than seven yards for pistol and our club extends that to ten yards. Rifle is shot at 25+ yds and shotgun no closer than 10.

It's all about speed and making everyone a "clean match" winner when it used to be a major accomplishment to shoot clean. In 17 years, our annual match has only been shot clean once and that was last year. We didn't think it could be done as we had disappearing targets, flying targets and bobbing targets. He earned his trophy!
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2019, 04:58:37 pm »

And .... Yer Point??  Oh .. Wait.  I know.  PJ don't like BIG and CLOSE targets.  Big, Close and Fast equators a travesty.  Oh well.

The "Game" has in fact evolved to what it now is.  Lamenting about the days of yore, when men were men and the sheep were nervous is kind of Oxymoron.  Let's face it ......

IT  IS  WHAT  IT  IS.  I know PJ's place is stuck in the past and that's OK.  Nothing wrong with that.  I sometimes yearn for targets that were two blocks away too.  But not real often.  I do admit I really like BIG, CLOSE and FAST ... even if I have become Old, Fat and Slow.  the sands of time and all that.

Offline Buffalo Creek Law Dog

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2019, 08:48:45 pm »
We actually lost a couple of members due to targets so close that one can actually spit at them.  Unless you are a gamer, what's the point at shooting at targets you can hit blindfolded, no fun in that.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2019, 10:20:24 pm »
It's all about fast and easy these days.  Especially fast.  Besides being close and easy to hit, the rifle sequence almost always is the same as the pistol sequence.  Kind of dumbing it down.  I'm just comparing it to the "good ol' days".  Now, as I age, I find that having the rifle and pistol sequence the same wears a lot less on my brain cells.  Targets are getting somewhat closer at my local clubs, with some clubs bringing pistol in to about 5 yards, but they are not huge.  And those clubs do offer Sharpshooter category for those wishing some more challenge (shoot pistol at rifle targets, shoot rifle at Cody Dixon targets (50-70 yds)).  I shot that category last year, it was fun.  Personally, I'd like a mixture.  I would like one HUGE/CLOSE stage per match, and the rest a mixture including some you have to aim.  After 20 years, I'm finally starting to break 30 seconds on a regular basis, and going "fast" is fun, too!

Offline Coal Creek Griff

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2019, 11:35:16 pm »
shooting at targets you can hit blindfolded...

I don't shoot CAS, but I'm envisioning a blindfold stage. Let's see, the scenario could be that you've been falsely arrested and are standing blindfolded before a firing squad when you suddenly grab a guard's gun off a nearby table... Could be, um, interesting.  ;D

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Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2019, 10:42:53 am »
At a local event, we had a man-on-man event with each shooter having five 8" steel plates to knock down at 10 yds. Pairs were by draw. We started with gun in hand at a low ready. It boiled down to me and a 13 year old boy shooting a borrowed Remington .45 Colt.

I thought about throwing it but decided that would be an insult to his skill and ability. We both missed two targets but I missed faster, so I won. The 'hot shots' who wouldn't play "... because we don't use our sights ....," just slunk away. They wouldn't shoot in the 75 yd rifle speed & accuracy match either.  ::)

The upshot was that they said they wouldn't come back to our shoots. We advised them not to let the door hit them in the ass on their way out.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 11:01:40 am by PJ Hardtack »
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Kent Shootwell

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2019, 02:51:42 pm »
At my first match, many moons ago, the phrase ? sprite of the game? meant to play cowboy/gunfighter. The wife and I got into dress up and shot with a few clubs. Great fun and people that seemed to enjoy playing the game. As the years ticked on the fun factor dropped as targets got bigger and closer. Less effort was put into having a scenario with a theme. My gal lost interest quicker then I but when at one shoot I was able to hit the rifle target 10 times from the hip the fun was gone. I still have all my stuff just in case a new guy would ask me to take them to a cowboy match. Had some good fun but that has past.
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Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2019, 05:09:13 pm »
I didn't intend to disparage those that like "up close, quick & dirty", just not my preference.

Gotta remember I came from the era of one gun and it was usually a .45, sometimes a .44 and people shot skookum loads on general principle. The Rule Book fit into a shirt pocket and under "Equipment Eligibility" it said - "If John Wayne would use it, its' OK."

I also shoot in IDPA and IPSC and you have to be able to hit portions of the paper targets screened by No Shoots and knock over steel Pepper Poppers. They also have and enforce a Power Factor to keep folks honest.

Right now "Wild Bunch" is the closest to what used to was in the way of guns and ammo, unless they've gone the same route as the main menu.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline greyhawk

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2019, 10:43:51 pm »
At a local event, we had a man-on-man event with each shooter having five 8" steel plates to knock down at 10 yds. Pairs were by draw. We started with gun in hand at a low ready. It boiled down to me and a 13 year old boy shooting a borrowed Remington .45 Colt.

I thought about throwing it but decided that would be an insult to his skill and ability. We both missed two targets but I missed faster, so I won.

 PJ  -you did it right - I bet that kid went away scheming on how hes gonna beat that old guy next time - and when he does it he will know he did something worthwhile - I reckon throwing a match is never in anyones best interest - been in that same place meself - I was last shooter in a walk through rondy event - clean with a couple targets to go - the range officer knew us both well and informed me that the gal that was our club secretary back home was best score so far and one target down - (we were good mates at that point) - thought about it for a bit - knew how excited she would be to win - but also how pi$$ed she would be if she figured out I dropped it for her ....only a game after all.

The 'hot shots' who wouldn't play "... because we don't use our sights ....," just slunk away. They wouldn't shoot in the 75 yd rifle speed & accuracy match either.  ::)

The upshot was that they said they wouldn't come back to our shoots. We advised them not to let the door hit them in the ass on their way out.

Offline Jeremiah Jones

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2019, 09:27:10 am »
Still shaking my head at Coffinmaker complaining about someone in CAS living in the past?!?!?  Also +1 for going back to scenarios that did NOT include targets so close you can knock then down by throwing your bullets.

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2019, 10:32:10 am »
You mean that shooting mouse phart loads in slicked up, short stroke guns IS NOT living in the past, not living the "Cowboy Way"?

Whodathunkit .... ?

"Stand by, Beep! - "tink, tink, tink ....".  Hey, the sound of the pellet hitting steel is louder than the report of the gun!
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Offline ChuteTheMall

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2019, 09:32:18 pm »
The card-table distances should be the exception, not the rule.
The US military says the maximum effective range of their .45 acp ball ammo from a 1911 is 50 meters.
I think we can do better than 10% of that.

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2019, 11:41:03 am »
Strange you should say that .... back in the day, an IPSC COF had to include 25% 'draw and fire exercises' out as far as 50 m.

I just returned from an intensive two day course during which each student fired in excess of 600 rds.  :o I was re-auditing the IPSC 'Black Badge' course as I had let my membership lapse a couple of years ago. Te course was $275 plus travel and accommodation expenses, and of course, your ammo.

We convened at the range at 8 am, shooting commenced at 10:30 after class room sessions and we shot until 5:30 pm with a 1/2 hour lunch break. Eight students shot from 7 m to 20 m - free style, (two hands), weak handed, strong handed, kneeing, prone, paper and steel. Lowest power floor was 9mm factory ammo except for me and one other dinosaur (I'll be 77 in November) who shot our antedeluvian .45 ACP 1911s with 170 power factor loads. You know the formula .... if not, I'll post it. My gun was actually a Remington 'Carry' Commander with 4-1/4" barrel.

There were full sized targets and several screened by 'No Shoots', one at 15m where only the top 1/3 of the target was unscreened. We shot through ports, doors, windows and of course - the classic "El Presidente" drill. There were pop up targets, bobbing targets and disappearing targets.

My point? At major IPSC events, attendance at some I've attended can be as high as 125 shooters shooting 10 stages, some of them to the maximum allowed 32 rds per stage. That's a LOT of shooting under pressure with loads you could go to war with. If you didn't use your sights and have good trigger control, your score reflected it.  :P

But in CAS , the game has devolved to REALLY up close and dirty and 'gimmee' targets shot with wimp loads. Where there are HUNDREDS of participants, this makes sense as it accommodates a lot of people very quickly.

You either like it or not and you have the option of not participating if you don't. You pays you money - you takes you choice.  ::)

In my case, I like the slower pace of "old school' CAS, including any gimmicks thrown in for fun and variety. I get all the hype and speed I can handle with IPSC and then some! The IPSC shooters in Cowboy Boots can do their thing with wimp loads and we're all happy.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 11:46:28 am by PJ Hardtack »
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2019, 02:25:18 pm »
PJ, you would like our club?s matches. We get a lot of complaints about rifle targets being too far out. [Under their breath as our MD would not be amused.] And when they DO get moved in closer our match director uses the smaller marshals. Love it. Too close targets are one of the reasons I stopped attending a semi local club?s WB matches. I was coming in second place using an actual itty bitty sight 1911 not an A1 and I shoot duelist, and I?m not that hot of a shot but can operate a 1911 pretty smooth and my Marlin 1894 is slick as snot.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 05:37:11 pm by Baltimore Ed »
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2019, 05:03:05 pm »

Well heck.  I actually do harken back to those halcyon days of yesteryear.  My favorite place to shoot had full size horse props.  Them suckers were HUGE.  Had to give those folks challenged for height a little stool so they could hop on.  Rifle in a Scabbard.  Pommel Holsters for the handguns.  Shot the stage from atop the horse.  Gobs of fun.  Had a Wagon.  Lever gun can be a handful under a wagon.  Also shot from on top of the wagon.  Had boat on Springs that wobbled as you shot.  Some others.  Oh, and a really nice PAIR of Texas Stars.Groups of fun.

SLOW.  Really really SLOW to get all 6 posse's thru those stages.  SLOW. 

A lot of folks started to complain.  So those fun things slowly went away.  Now gone at all but a few places.  Damn few.  Those same folks that started the complaints about the crazy fun stuff are now the same folks who complain about the BIG AND CLOSE.  Be real careful what you wish for.  I also don't lament much nor complain where CAS is.  It (the game) isn't going to go back.  In fact, as those of us whom help start this game get too old and or infirm to play, the game is slowly die'n and no help for it.  Try and enjoy what we have, as best you can.  Blink and it will be gone completely.

Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2019, 05:24:19 pm »
 I used to be more involved in my clubs shoots and one month i had the cowpokes do the Rooster Cogburn - Ned Pepper scene complete with eye patch and a small piece of clean rope that the shooter had to put into their mouth [everyone got a fresh piece of rope] after saying their line. ?Ned Pepper, I mean to see you hanged at Ft Smith at Judge Parkers convenience? or words to that effect,  the posse replied ?that?s bold talk for a one eyed fat man [or woman]? the shooter then said ?fill your hand you sob?. He then put the ?reins? in his mouth and after the beep engaged an array of targets with both pistols and his rifle. All this was done from atop our horse/barrel. Fun stuff.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2019, 11:10:18 pm »
Well I was never very fond of a saddle on a 50 gal. drum, always gave me bad leg cramps that made it hard to shoot!

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2019, 10:56:45 am »
We have a quandry here. The "old ways" were fun but created bottlenecks. The new ways eliminated the need to actually be able to shoot accurately, but put a lot of people through a stage in a hurry.

Looks like only the small shoots will offer the "Cowboy Way" until the sports dies out when the last old timer hangs ups his spurs and CAS goes the way of the buffalo.    :'(
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2019, 11:14:00 pm »

YES.  Unfortunately.   :'(

Offline Lumpy Grits

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Re: Closer yet .... ?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2019, 03:23:43 pm »
PJ-IMNSHO--SASS is nut'n but a 'drag-race' these dayz.
Most of the fun is gone....... :(
Glad to have a 'old-days' SASS club not far from me.
Only club I shoot now.
LG
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