Author Topic: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)  (Read 7419 times)

Offline Whiskey Double

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2019, 06:49:50 am »
General Sir
 I'll be bringing both my ATV and my UTV arriving Wednesday early afternoon.  If there is anything else you need let me know.
Whiskey Double      GAF 853    Major, Chief of Staff  Div. of Iowa
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2019, 02:12:40 pm »
I got started with the "downloaded" Martini-Henry cartridges I need for the main match skirmishes, by casting a bunch of 405 grain ".45-70 bullets" the other day.



However, I hit a snag in loading the actual cartridges - started chamber-checking cases in my "new" Royal Canadian Artillery-marked Mark III Martini-Henry rifle that I want to use for this Muster (since I am doing an Artillery impression) and find that it apparently has a "tighter" chamber than any of my other M-H rifles (including the other Mk III rifle I have previously used and would have along this time as backup.)  At any rate, many of my cases were a bit difficule to chamber ... at least half of them to such an extent they wouldn't go in far enough to permit me to close the breechblock! 



So, I've had to divert into a round of annealing all of them, then full-length resizing the lot!  Even after doing that, I still have a small number of cases which don't chamber properly .... but I can leave those aside for later since I do have enough to load what i need for Muster.   I'll be hopefully get that done today, finally! Gotta ensure that all rounds chamber properly in both rifles I'll have along, since I'll be over a thousand miles from home ...



... and it seems highly unlikely anyone else there will be able to lend me a rifle that will take my ammo ...  ::)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier
Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/

Offline smoke

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2019, 02:48:31 pm »
RSJ...what is this downloaded load you speak of?  I just bought dies, and mold for my MH.  I would love to find a downloaded...AKA cheap...load for it.
GAF#379

Offline Delmonico

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2019, 04:18:11 pm »
I am still planning on arriving on Monday afternoon noon.

I will figure out something for a meal for Monday night supper, so if anyone needs such let me know by Sunday evening, but as always there should be plenty if someone didn't get their name in the pot.

Due to being retired and not having to deal with work bull crap this year I started a sourdough starter and plan on making my famous sourdough sinner-mon rolls that have never been made at the Muster.

Tongue in cheek, any kale eaters out there?  I have a way to make it edible and will have some but it may not last more than a day or two, but will be fun to offer samples of since this ain't yer Yuppie neighbors kale.

Also Jerry sent me a picture of his large turnip patch and any meal with turnip greens will have other side dishes for those who don't appreciate the finer things in life.  Vinegar and hot sauce will be available for those who do.  Quest for smoked hog jewels will happen tomorrow.
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2019, 04:49:48 pm »
RSJ...what is this downloaded load you speak of?  I just bought dies, and mold for my MH.  I would love to find a downloaded...AKA cheap...load for it.

Essentially, I am trying to approximate the Martini-Henry "carbine load" introduced in 1877 ... it having been found that the M-H carbines were virtually unusable with the full rifle load of 480 grain bullet and 85 grains powder (... ask Guns Garrett and his poor shoulder about that!)  This called for a shorter 410 grain bullet, so the 405gr bullet is darned close (... although they are a bit too small in diameter, so I cast them quite soft so they "bump up" better in the rifling, and shoot them unsized as well) and 70 grains of powder.  Essentially the same load as the ultimate .45-70 loading, you'll note. 

The difficulty is that although the original full 85 grain rifle charge came all the way up to the bottom of the cartridge neck, the level of 70 grains of powder falls below the shoulder of the Martini-Henry case. They originally used a quantity of carded wool below the "glazed disk" in the carbine load, to take up the space, then later the carbine load cases were instead lined with a coil of heavy paper/light cardboard below the shoulder. 

Unfortunately, "modern" commonly employed fillers (like cornmeal, seminola, grits or whatever) may be problematic because they can reportedly "slug up" in the bottleneck, resulting in erratic pressures and potential loss of accuracy (if not dangerous overpressure.) The solution is to use an "active filler" (a 50/50 mix of black powder and the cornmeal or other filler) over a reduced powder charge.  The BP within the filler theoretically burns as soon as the powder charge goes off and prevents "slugging" of the filler in the neck.  Technically, you have to include the BP within the filler as part of your powder charge, so I use about 55 grains of 2F topped by 30 grain equivalent (by volume) of the 50/50 "active" filler - this pretty much duplicates the volume of an 85 grain charge, while yielding an "actual" charge of 70 grains BP (i.e. 55 + 15).

I also use a "grease cookie" (a disk of good soft BP lube, such as SPG or homemade equivalent, sandwiched between disks punched out of coated milk carton material) directly under the bullet, in place of the beeswax wad and glazed cardboard disks of the original loads, to help keep fouling soft through a course of firing without cleaning, such as we do in GAF skirmishes ... 

Here is a graphic, based on the period cross-section of a full rifle load in a drawn brass case, on the right, to illustrate my adaptation ...



I use similar construction for my .577 Snider-Enfield cartridges although, since they have a straight-walled case, a plain filler can be used in lieu of the "active" filler. Although it may increase competition for me in the British military firearms field (... not that I am terribly good to start with, mind you ...) I have no problem sharing my experiences and methods ... I will turn 70 this fall, so gotta pass on the lore before it is too late!
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier
Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/

Offline 1961MJS

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2019, 09:27:52 pm »
Hi

Loaded 300 rounds of .45 Schofield brass, it holds the ejector better than the .45 Long Colt does.  I'm also reloading more .30-40 Krag.  I figure we get 60 rounds of Rilfe and 20 of pistol per run (Right?) and there's one Friday, four Saturday for 300 rounds of Rifle if I miss a lot plus 20 for long range. 

I'll have to segregate brass, the chambers on the carbine and rifle aren't much alike.

Later

« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 11:50:26 pm by 1961MJS »
Mike
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Offline smoke

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2019, 04:44:02 pm »
Essentially, I am trying to approximate the Martini-Henry "carbine load" introduced in 1877 ... it having been found that the M-H carbines were virtually unusable with the full rifle load of 480 grain bullet and 85 grains powder (... ask Guns Garrett and his poor shoulder about that!)  This called for a shorter 410 grain bullet, so the 405gr bullet is darned close (... although they are a bit too small in diameter, so I cast them quite soft so they "bump up" better in the rifling, and shoot them unsized as well) and 70 grains of powder.  Essentially the same load as the ultimate .45-70 loading, you'll note. 

The difficulty is that although the original full 85 grain rifle charge came all the way up to the bottom of the cartridge neck, the level of 70 grains of powder falls below the shoulder of the Martini-Henry case. They originally used a quantity of carded wool below the "glazed disk" in the carbine load, to take up the space, then later the carbine load cases were instead lined with a coil of heavy paper/light cardboard below the shoulder. 

Unfortunately, "modern" commonly employed fillers (like cornmeal, seminola, grits or whatever) may be problematic because they can reportedly "slug up" in the bottleneck, resulting in erratic pressures and potential loss of accuracy (if not dangerous overpressure.) The solution is to use an "active filler" (a 50/50 mix of black powder and the cornmeal or other filler) over a reduced powder charge.  The BP within the filler theoretically burns as soon as the powder charge goes off and prevents "slugging" of the filler in the neck.  Technically, you have to include the BP within the filler as part of your powder charge, so I use about 55 grains of 2F topped by 30 grain equivalent (by volume) of the 50/50 "active" filler - this pretty much duplicates the volume of an 85 grain charge, while yielding an "actual" charge of 70 grains BP (i.e. 55 + 15).

I also use a "grease cookie" (a disk of good soft BP lube, such as SPG or homemade equivalent, sandwiched between disks punched out of coated milk carton material) directly under the bullet, in place of the beeswax wad and glazed cardboard disks of the original loads, to help keep fouling soft through a course of firing without cleaning, such as we do in GAF skirmishes ... 

Here is a graphic, based on the period cross-section of a full rifle load in a drawn brass case, on the right, to illustrate my adaptation ...



I use similar construction for my .577 Snider-Enfield cartridges although, since they have a straight-walled case, a plain filler can be used in lieu of the "active" filler. Although it may increase competition for me in the British military firearms field (... not that I am terribly good to start with, mind you ...) I have no problem sharing my experiences and methods ... I will turn 70 this fall, so gotta pass on the lore before it is too late!

RSJ....sorry that I did not respond right away.  I've been traveling for family issues.   

Great explanation and pics.  I'll honest...I want this to shoot in my full length rifle.  No carbine in my arsenal.  I need one.   :D

GAF#379

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2019, 05:02:39 pm »
I don't have a Martini-Henry carbine, either ... but this is an approximation of the downloaded carbine cartridge, which is much more pleasant to shoot in the rifle than the full rifle load ...and also happens to comply with the GAF bullet weight and velocity limits for rifles of .50 caliber or less ... 

If you will be at the GAF Muster, by any chance, look me up and I can let you compare shooting this "carbine load" with the full-spec rifle load, as i will have a number of the latter along for the long-range rifle event.

(As you may be aware, the original U.S. .45-70 military cartridges were produced in both a "rifle load" with a 500 grain bullet and a "carbine load" with the 405 grain bullet, but the heavier bullet load was not pleasnt to shoot even in the rifles, and the load was fairly soon standardized with the lighter bullet ...)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier
Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/

Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2019, 06:11:39 pm »
Heading out for NE in a little bit. Will go at least to Dubuque, tonight.

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Offline Dusty Tagalon

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2019, 06:30:43 pm »
My 50/70 are lite, 48 grains APP, 385 grain bullet.
Brian

Offline Delmonico

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2019, 07:12:36 pm »
Heading out for NE in a little bit. Will go at least to Dubuque, tonight.

Slim

Be careful, I think they have frost warnings.😂
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline smoke

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2019, 09:05:56 pm »
I don't have a Martini-Henry carbine, either ... but this is an approximation of the downloaded carbine cartridge, which is much more pleasant to shoot in the rifle than the full rifle load ...and also happens to comply with the GAF bullet weight and velocity limits for rifles of .50 caliber or less ... 

If you will be at the GAF Muster, by any chance, look me up and I can let you compare shooting this "carbine load" with the full-spec rifle load, as i will have a number of the latter along for the long-range rifle event.

(As you may be aware, the original U.S. .45-70 military cartridges were produced in both a "rifle load" with a 500 grain bullet and a "carbine load" with the 405 grain bullet, but the heavier bullet load was not pleasnt to shoot even in the rifles, and the load was fairly soon standardized with the lighter bullet ...)

Thanks for the offer...alas we have long standing yearly plans that really prevent me from making a muster.  4th July on Cape Cod is a grand display of civil disobedience and heck of fireworks show.  This years plans are up in the air due to my mom have major health issues.  I really wanted ot "Head up the Nile" and be there with you guys but it won't work out.

Is it un-manly to admit that I wish the carbine load for a .45-70 were even lighter?  Because I wish that every time I shoot a carbine.
GAF#379

Offline Delmonico

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2019, 09:24:41 pm »




Is it un-manly to admit that I wish the carbine load for a .45-70 were even lighter?  Because I wish that every time I shoot a carbine.

Not if you admit you are  a worn out old phart.

Don't waterfowl hunt anymore and was thinking the other day I ought to give my H&R 10 gauge to my nephew.

Dang, used to load a couple boxes of 8's and go shoot targets with it, really poofs them but do I want to abuse myself that bad anymore?
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline smoke

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2019, 09:32:54 pm »
Not if you admit you are  a worn out old phart.

Don't waterfowl hunt anymore and was thinking the other day I ought to give my H&R 10 gauge to my nephew.

Dang, used to load a couple boxes of 8's and go shoot targets with it, really poofs them but do I want to abuse myself that bad anymore?

I ain't worn out yet! Dagnabit!  Close but not yet! >:( ;D
GAF#379

Offline smoke

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2019, 09:44:41 pm »
I have no problem sharing my experiences and methods ... I will turn 70 this fall, so gotta pass on the lore before it is too late!

BTW....70?  Yikes!  I thought you were maybe 60ish.
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2019, 09:54:08 pm »
I ain't worn out yet! Dagnabit!  Close but not yet! >:( ;D

Then shoot them and quit whining.
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2019, 01:02:24 pm »
My 50/70 are lite, 48 grains APP, 385 grain bullet.
Brian

I like to shoot the .577 Snider-Enfield with the full load of 70gr powder and 480grn bullet ... 

That load doesn't leave those targets standing as long as you hit 'em ... although I've had a couple bounce back up!   ;D
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier
Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/

Online Drydock

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2019, 05:11:36 pm »
Extry lite load for my Extry short trapdoor:  A Big Lube PRS 260 grain bullet, (drops .457"), a .460 1/2" Circle Fly wad, and 45 grains FFG.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2019, 08:23:08 pm »
Extry lite load for my Extry short trapdoor:  A Big Lube PRS 260 grain bullet, (drops .457"), a .460 1/2" Circle Fly wad, and 45 grains FFG.

Sounds like what some uncharitable folks might call a "mouse fart load" ... ;)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier
Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/

Online Drydock

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2019, 09:27:44 pm »
More like a "rat fart" really. 
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline 1961MJS

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2019, 10:54:22 am »
More like a "rat fart" really.

Hi
I have always understood the term mouse fart load, but if didn't hit home until last year at OKC gun club.  I was talking to the guy who makes my hats.  We were about 25 yards behind the firing line and couldn't hear the pistols go off, but could hear the lead hitting metal.
That's a baby mouse.

Later
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 02:37:12 pm by 1961MJS »
Mike
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Division of Oklahoma

Offline 1961MJS

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2019, 10:57:32 am »
Hi again

Its early in the day, but my PLAN is to leave early tomorrow morning so I'll be there for breakfast Thursday morning to help set up or make rude comments while y'all set up.

Later
Mike
GAF #797
Brevet Lieutenant Colonel
Division of Oklahoma

Offline Johnny McCrae

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2019, 11:00:16 am »
I sure wish I could attend this one. I've been to several GAF Musters in Illinois through the years. GAF Musters are awesome events!
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 09:27:42 am by Johnny McCrae »
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Offline Dusty Tagalon

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2019, 04:22:26 pm »
Go ahead & make fun of my 48grs powder, 385gr .515 bullet, slight compression. Both my guns are 1863s converted to 50/70.
Dusty

Offline Niederlander

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Re: 2019 GAF Grand Muster-Defending the Empire (1874-1899)
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2019, 09:46:27 pm »
I'm not making fun of your load.  I shot a few rounds of 425 grain bullet, full charge black powder through a Sharps carbine the other day, and I have a visible bruise on my shoulder.
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