Author Topic: Another Ignorant Scribe  (Read 4449 times)

Offline Coffinmaker

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Another Ignorant Scribe
« on: June 12, 2018, 04:40:04 pm »

Here we go again Boys and Girls.  Just perusing the latest Guns of The Old West.  Our marvelous chief scribe as shown ignorance in his obviously learned presentation.  In his story about the 1871/72 Open Top, he proclaims "In 1873, Colt added the .45 Long Colt to the Peacemaker's chamberings." 

I again submit for your consideration, another scribe (the was a previous one) ignorantly proclaiming the .45 "Long" Colt cartridge.  There never was, Never has been a .45 Long Colt.  The Cartridge is, was, always will be "45 Colt."  PERIOD. 

Not that I'm at all anal about this issue.  Oh, and chamberings is not a proper work either.  So There!!

Offline Dave T

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2018, 08:58:43 pm »
I agree but I've had so many people argue with me about it over the years I've given up. Let them wallow in their ignorance! (smile)

Dave
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 11:44:33 am by Dave T »

Offline Sagebrush Burns

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2018, 10:01:10 pm »
As long as we're picking it apart:  the Peacemaker was introduced in 1873 chambered in the 45 Colt cartridge.  It was not "added".

Offline Chance

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2018, 01:40:28 am »
It's one of my pet hates too, but last time I looked at the Colt website they were advertising the SAA in ".45LC" calibre.  ???

Chance

Offline Major 2

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2018, 07:09:46 am »
It's one of those "disambiguation's" , that has morphed itself to become acceptable mainstream slang .

It allowed for the uniformed to differentiate between  45 Colt  & 45 ACP and less degree 45 Schofield. 

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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2018, 10:09:43 am »

Same Ignoramus also wrote the Uberti Open Top was chambered in 44-40    :o   Last I checked, Neither Colt in the original guns, nor Uberti in the reproduction EVER chambered in 44-40.  Annoying when they get it SO wrong.  However:

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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2018, 10:11:57 am »
I thought that the first prototype/s of the '73 SAA was/were made in the existing army pistol round, the .44 Colt/Martin? It was almost immediately changed to .45 as the Army had just decided to seek commonality of ammunition based on .45 caliber.

P.S: Correction! The first PROTOTYPES for the 1872 tests were in .44 American. .45 Colt was specified for adoption.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 03:55:33 pm by Sir Charles deMouton-Black »
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Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2018, 02:11:23 pm »
It's one of those "disambiguation's" , that has morphed itself to become acceptable mainstream slang .

It allowed for the uniformed to differentiate between  45 Colt  & 45 ACP and less degree 45 Schofield. 



Could it be, that it is like the difference between
Pig
And
Long Pig?

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Offline Mogorilla

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2018, 11:39:01 am »
Hmmm Long pig with a side of soylent green.   Tasty
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Offline Major 2

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2018, 04:25:24 pm »
Did you forget... what soylent green turned out to be ?

as I recall it was filet of Edward G. Robinson   :o
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Offline Roscoe

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2018, 09:48:20 am »
Gun makers have also decided that "pistol" is as opposed to "revolver", i.e. that a revolver is not a pistol. That is a practical distinction, whereas the word "long" in Long Colt adds nothing.

Online FriscoCounty

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2018, 10:56:21 am »
It's one of those "disambiguation's" , that has morphed itself to become acceptable mainstream slang .

It allowed for the uniformed to differentiate between  45 Colt  & 45 ACP and less degree 45 Schofield. 



References to .45 Long Colt appeared before the introduction of the .45 ACP.  The term was sporadically used by quartermasters in the late 1870s and early 1880s to differentiate between full length Colt .45 cartridges and the dual use .45 Colt/Schofield cartridge until stocks of the full length cartridge were used up. 

The Franklin Arsenal initially produced full length .45 Colt cartridges loaded with a 250gr bullet and 30gr of BP.  It stopped manufacturing them in August 1874.  Beginning in early 1875 it began issuing the "Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45".  This was a compromise cartridge that would chamber in both the Colt M1873 and the S&W #3 (Schofield).  It has an OL 0.19" shorter than the Colt, with a smaller rim than the .45 Schofield cartridge, and was loaded with a 203gr RNFP bullet and 28gr BP. 
 
The "Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45" was originally a Berdan primed cartridge. In 1882 it was converted to Boxer priming and was superseded in 1887 by the M1887 ball cartridge (also a dual use cartridge). 

Of note, the Colt .45 cartridge used in the M1873 field trials used a load of 40gr BP behind a 255 gr bullet.

Colt's Revolver .45 cartridge:


Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45


Ref:

Hackley, Woodin and Scranton, “History of Modern U. S. Military Small Arms Ammunition” Volume 1

McChristian, "THe U.S. Army in the West, 1870-1880 Uniforms, Weapons, and Equipment"

http://www.oldammo.com/november14.htm
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Offline major

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2018, 06:56:03 pm »
Frisco
Are thoes copper cartridges rime fire or center fire?
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2018, 11:53:00 am »

Sir Charles, the "PROTOTYPES for the 1872" should read for the "1873".  Me Thinks  ::)

Online FriscoCounty

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2018, 09:32:51 am »
Frisco
Are thoes copper cartridges rime fire or center fire?

Center-fire, probably Benet primed.  Early cartridges were Benet primed, it was then switched to Berdan, and then, finally, to Boxer.  Also, the original cartridges were copper, not brass.    

Benet cartridges were internally primed:


« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 09:35:44 am by FriscoCounty »
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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2018, 09:38:26 am »
Sir Charles, the "PROTOTYPES for the 1872" should read for the "1873".  Me Thinks  ::)

The tests were in 1872.  In fact, Colt's first offering was the 1872 open top.  The Army came back and required a top strap.
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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2018, 11:54:41 am »
Not being "Murikan" I don't claim to be an authority, but I've seen references to tests in 1872 and 1873. By the 1873 tests, the .45 in the SAA was tested.
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Offline greenjoytj

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2018, 07:40:02 am »
Gun makers have also decided that "pistol" is as opposed to "revolver", i.e. that a revolver is not a pistol. That is a practical distinction, whereas the word "long" in Long Colt adds nothing.

Wrong, The “L” does add something.  It adds LENGHT to help differentiate one a .45” cartridge from another, that may or may not fit your revolver.   

Offline Roscoe

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2018, 12:35:51 pm »
Wrong, The “L” does add something.  It adds LENGHT to help differentiate one a .45” cartridge from another, that may or may not fit your revolver.   
Tell that to Coffinmaker. the OP. I think you cite the same misinformation that he is trying to address.

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2018, 01:54:10 pm »

greenjoytj,

To quote greenjoytj .... "WRONG"   There is no "Length" to differentiate (2 dollar wurd).  .45 Colt is just that.  .45 Colt.  PERIOD.  Any and ALL "other" 45 caliber cartridges have their own individual name.  To illustrate ... ACP,  45 Auto Rim, .45 Government, .45 Schofield, Cowboy 45 Special.  There are no 45 Colt Short Cartridges.  There are no 45 Colt Long Cartridges.  There are only 45 Colt.  PERIOD.

Gonna poke yer finger in someone's eye .... best make sure yer right first.

Offline Reverend P. Babcock Chase

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2018, 03:06:45 pm »
Thank you, Coffinmaker. You are absolutely right, but I fear that few will heed the wisdom of your explanation.

Reverend Chase

Offline Abilene

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2018, 04:09:33 pm »
How about .38 Long Colt ???   :D

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2018, 06:05:45 pm »
How about .38 Long Colt ???   :D

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Offline Grapeshot

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2019, 09:14:10 pm »
Could it be, that it is like the difference between
Pig
And
Long Pig?

Yhs
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Pig: Four legged omnivore known to eat everything in its way, including dead mammals, including their own offspring.  Long Pig:  Term used by cannibals to describe humans used for their food. a.k.a. Long Pork.  (Humans, the other White Meat)
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Offline Jeremiah Jones

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Re: Another Ignorant Scribe
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2019, 09:00:39 am »
Coffinmaker, this is the west.  When the legend becomes reality, you print the legend.
.45 Long Colt, it is!