Author Topic: .45-75 Winchester brass  (Read 6459 times)

Offline larryo1

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2019, 06:53:46 pm »
D.T.
Glad what little I had to offer could help.  I quite getting cases after about 4-500 rounds and still have some stashed that I haven't done anything with but one of these days I will have to dip in and use them.  Anyhow it is fun. One of my more interesting moments was when I found out that I could get 76 grains of 1½F into a Jamison case.  That turned out to be one of my better moments with regards to a loud BOOM and a heavy recoil but it did shoot clean and was quite accurate.  I got that info off an original box of factory loads.  Damn those Mounties must have been tuff buggers.  It also makes one wonder about the integrity of those folks at those factories what did the original loadings but guess that was a long ago anyway.  Have fun.

Offline dusty texian

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2019, 12:10:16 pm »
Larry O  , my hunting loads for my 28" oct. bbl .45-75 1876  are loaded with 77 gr. by weight  Swiss 2ff and an original 350 gr. bullet .It is a stout load and yes I agree the Mounties or anyone firing that load in a SRC 1876 is in for a Blast /Boom /Recoil . Thank You for your input on the fire Forming the 348 brass . Had the EHB 1876 out for some target shooting yesterday afternoon using my target load around 65-66 gr. Swiiss 2ff and a 350 gr. bullet that load along with the Extra Weight of this Bull Barrel gun makes it a very pleasant shooter . Here is the old girl all cleaned up after the shoot .,,,DT

Offline larryo1

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2019, 12:18:35 pm »
DT:

I forgot to mention that it was Bullseye that I had  in under that Cream-of-Wheat when I test fired.  I guess it probably don't mean much as lng as the brass is fire-formed.  Also, I peaked at some of my loads and in the fire-formed .348 cases, I was able to put in 76 grains of Swiss 1½BP with a 0.020" card over it and as you say, the recoil is quite rewarding and I always think that it could be interesting to tangle with one of those ol Mounties at the firing range huh!

Offline Oregon Bill

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2019, 01:35:16 pm »
Dang me that's a handsome '76, Dusty!    ;D

Offline dusty texian

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2019, 04:08:23 pm »
DT:

I forgot to mention that it was Bullseye that I had  in under that Cream-of-Wheat when I test fired.  I guess it probably don't mean much as lng as the brass is fire-formed.  Also, I peaked at some of my loads and in the fire-formed .348 cases, I was able to put in 76 grains of Swiss 1½BP with a 0.020" card over it and as you say, the recoil is quite rewarding and I always think that it could be interesting to tangle with one of those ol Mounties at the firing range huh!
          Thanks Larry O , I have some old 348 cases but will wait until I get some new brass in for fireforming . Will try some Unique powder about 6 or 7 gr. under the corn meal should do it . If the wind slows down a bit will burn some powder . ,,,DT

Offline dusty texian

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2019, 04:10:00 pm »
Dang me that's a handsome '76, Dusty!    ;D
   Thanks Bill , I don't like carrying it around but on the bags its a sweetheart for sure .,,,DT

Offline larryo1

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2019, 05:54:35 pm »
DT:
The only other thing that might be worth mentioning is that there is suppose to be a "Coke Bottle" shape at the head of the case when you use .348 brass.  Well, I did have that situation with the first firing but now with all my .348 cases that are now ..45-75 cases that shape has gone away at least in mine.  Don't know if this means anything other than the fact that this situation has not caused me any problems. Also I may mention that I have not lost any cases since the forming was done and after alot of shottings.  Needless to say, that .348 brass is some pretty tough stuff.

Offline greyhawk

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2019, 07:05:16 pm »
DT:
The only other thing that might be worth mentioning is that there is suppose to be a "Coke Bottle" shape at the head of the case when you use .348 brass.  Well, I did have that situation with the first firing but now with all my .348 cases that are now ..45-75 cases that shape has gone away at least in mine.  Don't know if this means anything other than the fact that this situation has not caused me any problems. Also I may mention that I have not lost any cases since the forming was done and after alot of shottings.  Needless to say, that .348 brass is some pretty tough stuff.

Larryo
I was one "complained" about the 348 cases forming out of shape - all my 348 brass is winchester and it measures consistently .543 at the soild head - my fully formed cases measure .554 at the bulge (where wall joins soild head) so there is a quite noticeable swell there - (BTW when we google 348W case dimension the spec dimension for 348 at base is .553 -- the 50/110 parent case says .551) So if the parent brass had been made fuill sized ?? ------ I dont know what other brands measure (Starline - Hornady) ----winchester was the only choice when I bought mine. It is tough brass and now I have it formed out fully the thick necks have turned out to be a bonus - my rifle is very neat up the front end - cast boolits are just a neat slide fit in unsized case necks . I dont neck size but have made a little outside swage die and I run all rounds through that after loading - just in case I made a little bump on the neck in crimping ---like you have not lost any cases since I started shooting - some up to 6 or 7 loads and just looking nice.

   

Offline larryo1

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2019, 10:24:36 am »
Greyhawk:
I don't know why my cases lost that "Bulge" but they did.  Maybe I had my tongue in my cheek just so--anyway, Any bulge that there is there sure don't hurt the brass any.  My cases are both Remington and Winchester and in both cases, they work just fine for me.  I think--just maybe-- that the Remington cases are a wee bit tougher than the Winchester ones but that is my own opinion.  Anyway, they are a darn good substitute for the real thing if and when those are available agin.  Thanks for your comments.

Offline greyhawk

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2019, 11:00:40 pm »
DT:

I forgot to mention that it was Bullseye that I had  in under that Cream-of-Wheat when I test fired.  I guess it probably don't mean much as lng as the brass is fire-formed.  Also, I peaked at some of my loads and in the fire-formed .348 cases, I was able to put in 76 grains of Swiss 1½BP with a 0.020" card over it and as you say, the recoil is quite rewarding and I always think that it could be interesting to tangle with one of those ol Mounties at the firing range huh!

Larry O
I formed my last batch of brass from 348 - just neck expanded it up - shortened it (too much, some of em shrunk a little bit after firing) and went shooting with blackpowder loads - took proly three cycles to get them blown out - but the rifle shot well enough to be fun with the fireform loads - when I switched over to heavy boollits (DT posted pics of Winchester 450grain x 90 grain pointy boolit loads) That load fetched them out pretty much on the first round - a little more the second go but not much.

466 grain CBE (shortened Lyman Postell) / 72 grains of my Cartidge no2 = got 1244FPS ---I had got up to 76 grains as an attention getter but accurracy a bit better with the 72g

When you do the cornmeal / bullseye thing do you fill the case right up or what ? I have never done that - a bit leery of fast powders in big cases I guess - I have stacks of red dot and WST powder here so could try it

Had a good day today! I went scratching around in the hidey hole where brass lives here and found 100 new 348 W cases! yippee! That gives me some over 200 for the 45/75 and plenty for the 348 as well - dont need to buy any more after all!

   

Offline larryo1

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2019, 09:20:21 am »
Greyhawk:

Yep. I fill them up to the brim and then press in that wax plug.  I only use about a small dab of Bullseye as am a bit skittish on that fast stuff too but it works.  I looked inmy records and found that  used either 16 grains of Bullseye or 20 gains of Titegroup and the cornmeal and wax bit.  Also, one of the things that I found, in my nosing in my records was that 22 grains of 2400 worked really well in my rifle.  Not that would be good for a "Purist" who uses only BP but I did find that load is rather accurate.  I found that load listed in one of Ken Waters' books for the 45-60 and 45-75.  When I first got my rifle, I really did a lot of browsing and trying different loads.  I did find that 72 grains of Swiss 1½ was just as accurate as the 76 grain load and doesn't kick as hard so-- for whatever that is worth.  Have fun.

Offline greyhawk

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2019, 10:22:49 pm »
Greyhawk:

Yep. I fill them up to the brim and then press in that wax plug.  I only use about a small dab of Bullseye as am a bit skittish on that fast stuff too but it works.  I looked inmy records and found that  used either 16 grains of Bullseye or 20 gains of Titegroup and the cornmeal and wax bit.  Also, one of the things that I found, in my nosing in my records was that 22 grains of 2400 worked really well in my rifle.  Not that would be good for a "Purist" who uses only BP but I did find that load is rather accurate.  I found that load listed in one of Ken Waters' books for the 45-60 and 45-75.  When I first got my rifle, I really did a lot of browsing and trying different loads.  I did find that 72 grains of Swiss 1½ was just as accurate as the 76 grain load and doesn't kick as hard so-- for whatever that is worth.  Have fun.

I have only shot blackpowder - not so much that I am a purist - just lazy - have had good results with black (I make it, so its really cheap) I enjoy handling the 76 so cleanup is not a chore, and despite initial intentions to work up smokeless loads (even cut a bunch of cases short so I could crimp to suit the groove of a LEE 340 grain boolit) - I guess I got to a point of why bother?  Have had a lot of fun with that big rifle the last couple years - well worth the price!

Offline larryo1

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2019, 09:24:45 am »
GH:

I am sort of like you in that respect-shooting BP and stuff.  I make my own bullet alloy but not the Black Power.  I use Swiss 1½ BP.  I  found a formula for  bullet alloy on the back of a box of original factory ammo awhile back-  actually it was a long time back!  Anyway, they recommended an alloy of 16:1.  So, I made some and it works great in my rifle.  I did try a 20:1 alloy but been having best luck with the 16:1 alloy.  Besides I can get my lead and tin pretty easy--so far.  Anyway, that is about  all that is about all I can pass on for now. I use a custom  mold  by Hoch that is patterned after an original WCF mold.  It casts pretty near a 350 grain bullet.

Offline pinto beans

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2019, 03:43:52 pm »
Greetings All,

Some news of sorts on brass.  I have always been a scrounger.  Finding things for repairs and such was and is a role I did in my professional life and on the farm.  Now that I am retired (or supposed to be!) been putting this character flaw to use in the search for 45-75 brass.  There is a company out there called Quality Cartridge  http://www.qual-cart.com/ .  Somewhere I had seen they produce some and maybe all of the 76 cartridge brass.  Well sure enough they do and Graf and Sons is listed as a distributor.  Went to Grafs site and they had a bag of 20 Quality Cartridge 45-75 in stock so I ordered it, figuring what the heck.  Been looking at the product and it presents as well made brass.  Haven't had time to do detailed measurements but will share when I do.  Attached is a very poor photo of the Jamesion, Rocky Mountain and Quality Cartridge next to each other.  Price wise it is more in line with Rocky Mountain Cartridge (who list the business for sale on their site but are still accepting orders so still available there I am guessing).  Quality Cartridge does accept direct orders on their web site but they state if out of a cartridge that they will produce it when enough back order is there to do so.  Not sure the level of back order required but that is what I read on the site.  Few images attached, but I ain't good at taking pictures so not the best.  I will report back as I start working up loads in the new brass, but it does give at least a source for now.

Keep ya powder dry!

Offline King Medallion

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2019, 04:01:08 pm »
Your right, your pic's suck!  :D ;D  :D

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2019, 04:44:32 pm »
Thanks for the info. Looks like its out of stock now you must have bought the last bag. Price is a little higher than Jamison last was but not much.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 04:46:24 pm by Cliff Fendley »
http://www.fendleyknives.com/

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Offline pinto beans

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2019, 05:00:32 pm »
Hey Mr. Cliff,

The company will sell direct, here is the order form location:

http://qual-cart.com/quality_cartridge_form.htm

Think the price is pretty much the same as what Graf had. $55.97 per 20 and it is listed in stock on products page.

Hope this helps!

P.B.


Offline pinto beans

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2019, 06:31:11 pm »
Greetings All,

As promised a little update on measurements taken on the Quality Cartridge brass. Now this is about as UN-Scientific as you can get!  For sake of argument, let us call it Farm Grade measurments (seeing as I am an old hill billy farmer). 

I took 3 cases at random and measured their length, rim diameter and rim thickness before sizing and triming.  I compared these to drawings sourced from an online posting that shows it came from custom cartridges for factory specs.  Here goes with what I found:

          OAL          Rim Dia          Rim Thickness
Avg       1.894      .603             .067
Factory   1.885     .629             .062

Now the avg of the 3 cases needs to include the note that all 3 were either identical or extremely close so overall the cases were consistent.  The avg measurements were close to the factory specs I found online with one excepting, the rim diameter.  This was evident when I primed the cases.  The old Lyman press uses the down stroke to seat a primer and the rims tended to stick slightly in the shell holder as the rim was pressed into the opening.  Now it wasn't much as a slight press down with the thumb and they slid out with no problem and all primed well with primer seating below level slightly.  The process used to prep was first neck size, then neck expansion die, then trim to length in Lyman universal trimmer.  Haven't tried them in the rifle to see how this smaller diameter rim does, will have to finish loading up for development of the load as am not sure of internal volume so didn't want to just dump standard loads used in the other brand cases in.   As soon as I try a loaded round will report how it feeds and ejects.  Will post up the load development as it happens too.

King Medallion I gave the pictures a try again, these suck too!!  :o Posted a few here just to show what is going on.  New phone in the works so we will see if technology helps but my bet is the loose nut at the key pad that is causing the poor quality pictures!! ;D

Hope this ain't boring, just hoping to pass along information as it comes along.  Thanks for reading and letting me join in!!

Keep Ya Powder Dry!!

Offline greyhawk

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2019, 06:58:09 pm »
Hey PB
These last pictures a lot better - think you wuz toooooo close last time and phones brain couldnt focus!

I took some farm grade (is therte any other sort?) measurements of my converted 348 winchester cases

OAL 1.960 (I set that to the maxium for my rifles chamber - havent done a cast - I flared the neck slightly and chamber the case - trim a bit, rinse and repeat till it chambers neat without turning the neck over)

Rim Diameter is spot on .600 (uberti ejects them fine)

Your rounds look like the case body is shorter (more like originals I have seen) - my cases are neat .600 neck length measured ourtside from the crease of the shoulder to end of case

I dont size anything at all for reloading - this brass is a tad thick, chamber is pretty neat, I load 460cast unsized, almost no neck expansion at all - I do a touch of a flare on the case mouth - fill em back up and put a tiny bit of taper crimp on - have not shot a smokeless load yet (cant be bothered really the black is working good - if I was going hunting and need to change my load, I think I would drop from FFto Fg black and put a small duplex under it - 6 grains 4227 - would expect the velocity and pressure to remain close to same )     

Offline pinto beans

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2019, 05:49:43 pm »
Greetings All,

It is known to those acquainted with me that I move at the speed of thick molasses in winter.  With that in mind, I got around today to loading the new brass from Quality Cartridge.  Figured to start a little below the standard load used in both Rock Mountain and Jamison cases just to be sure no surprises with the use of PuffLon filler and new brass.  Nothing strange at the loading bench (unless you count me!!  ;D) and in short order the 20 rounds were loaded and labeled for testing across the chronograph.  Here is where the fun started.  Reported previously of the concern the rims were a little on the small side in diameter.  I decided to test the feeding of the new cartridges in the rifle, and the fun began.  Tested 5 or 6 cartridges and at least 2 were not able to extract, the extractor hook just couldn't grab enough to pull them out.  I figured these 2 were just smaller than the bulk of the cartridges.  Setting them aside I took the 3 that had worked with no problems and loaded the magazine again.  Cycling carefully each worked with no problem.  Humm quality control issues or just the way this brand is made?  Tried it again and still cycled good. Figured all was well so tried it more briskly and disaster struck.  Round failed to extract and I didn't catch it before the elevator moved up with next round effectively causing one heck of a jam.  Sat and stewed for a bit, said my Sunday school lesson backwards then headed to the shop.  Side plates off, links out lever out, lifter finger out from elevator with pressure off the springs (a story in itself there, that big ape Uberti has snugging up screws is well fed and strong!) and down the elevator went.  Took range rod and gently pushed the round out of the chamber, unloaded the mag then set to putting the old girl back together. 

Conclusions I have reached, the Quality Cartridge brass does have slightly smaller rims in the diameter.  The Jamison and Rocky Mountain rounds will cycle as fast as you can work the lever with Never a hint of this problem.  Now I enjoy this rifle greatly, and it was due to be opened up and cleaned then lubed so this wasn't a total loss and both it and I managed with only couple of minor 'love marks' (I am getting old and clumsy so a few minor bumps came about).  What will I do with these?  Shoot them single shot and see what comes of things.  When I got the reloading setup going for this rifle years ago, I got a Lyman shell holder specifically for the 45-75.   The RMC brass was to big in the rim for it.  Exchanged it for a RCBS holder that I am using now and all is fine.  I bet these new cases would fit the Lyman shell holder I first had.  Does this mean the original cartridges were smaller or is there some other reason for this difference?  Don't know.  Now I have been blessed in many ways in my life,one big one being my Dad being a wonder at all things mechanical and teaching me these skills helped to work on things including reloading and rifles.  To date the 76 has been as smooth and easy as a rifle as I have ever worked with.  This don't discourage me any, just fuels my curious about the rifles and there cartridges.  If any of you all can shed light on what I came across in this latest adventure, help me to learn more on the 76 rifle and its cartridges.

Thanks again to all here for help in the past and tolerating my mis-adventures and Horrible pictures!!  Will report on what the range test yield if the weather Ever gets nice again!

Keep ya powder dry.

P.B.

Offline greyhawk

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2019, 05:21:23 am »
PB
I went back and re measured - seems like my farm grade measure was a bit on the agricultural side (like rougher,n a plowed paddock)
could not find that rim I said was spot on .600

Soooooo  I got two batches of brass here (no idea which is wot or where - they are allasame winchester headstamp)  those two lots would be at least twenty years different age manufacture - yeah thats a story I tell ya one day - one batch - the newer I think - has rim diameter pretty consistent at .6035 to .604 a few getting out to .606
rim thickness of those near as I can figure is about .062 to.065

other lot - the older I think (wild ass guess which is which) rim diameter runs .607 to .609 and thickness about .067 to .069

I have a  Uberti - delivered new off the boat in 2016 - has ZERO extraction problems with this brass.

One qualifier  - the neck part of my chamber is really, really neat to the load I am shooting - only just chambers - its neat enough that this stops the cases from flopping down in the chamber at the back and I get quite neat brass after it has filled out - the swelling at the back end of the case is pretty much even all around rather than a lump on one side like you see with most rifles .
 
My loaded rounds all go through a .485 neck swage die and finish outside neck diameter of loaded rounds is .4855. If I dont do that I will have problems chambering some rounds = little bit of a swelling under the crimp, or a teensy bulge at the base of the neck 

I am mostly shooting as cast,  or If I size = .460

The tight neck has been a bit of a headache at times but part of the reason this girl shoots nice I think. I dont neck size my brass at all once its fired - just that swage die to tidy things up.

Blackpowder only - mainly because it works so good I couldnt be bothered messing with a smokeless load   :D

   


Offline pinto beans

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2019, 09:20:05 am »
Thanks for checking your brass Greyhawk!  Been thinking on this so this morning dug out the dial calipers and checked all 3 brands of brass i have.  The Rock Mountain brass averaged .615 rim diameter, Jamison averaged .6145, and Quality Crtg averaged .603.  That is around .010 less than RMC and Jamison.  I have already checked the rifles extractor, it is as the day I got it with no ware or damage so am still thinking it is the smaller rims.  Now it may well be my rifle and how it was made so it just isn't able to digest the smaller rims.  In the long run it isn't a big deal as the different brands are in their own marked boxes and are never mixed so I will shoot these single shot and see how it goes.  I may reach out the to maker to see if the rims can be ordered to an average of .6145 diameter and if it is get a run made up for my rifle as the brass is very nice otherwise.  Will keep ya all posted as I move at that snails pace of mine!! :D

One thing for sure, these rifles are a joy to work with and great fun!!

P.B.

Offline Cimarron

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2019, 03:33:17 pm »
Well here it is almost a year later.  I just wrote Starline inquiring about .45-75 brass.  Maybe if others wrote them too they would consider making a batch.  Have a .38-55 High Wall to play with as well as a M-1917 Eddystone.  I had to take the M-1917 to get the High Wall.  The Eddystone was made in late November 1918 and has an excellent bore.  Having fun working up 1918 .30-06 ammo.  Gun shoots very well!  Thought I would be shooting the High Wall more but have had a great time shooting the M1917!  I hope Starline considers running up a batch of .45-75 as I would like to gat back to shooting the '76 again. 
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Offline Coal Creek Griff

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2019, 03:54:41 pm »
Well here it is almost a year later.  I just wrote Starline inquiring about .45-75 brass.  Maybe if others wrote them too they would consider making a batch.

Well, I have written to Starline about this periodically over time and I know that others have too.  I've also asked for a response as to whether it might be in the works for the future (or not), but have never received a reply.  I certainly think that there would be a market for .45-75 Win. brass...

CC Griff
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Offline King Medallion

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Re: .45-75 Winchester brass
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2019, 05:23:22 pm »
I also have Ave wrote to starline requesting a run of 45/75, never got a reply.