Author Topic: 40-60wcf Trouble  (Read 293 times)

Offline Smith Creek

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40-60wcf Trouble
« on: October 22, 2019, 03:43:51 pm »
I purchased a like new looking Uberti Centennial from a dealer on Gun Broker. While these guns are advertised as having a 1 in 40" twist this one appears to measure at 1-21". ??  I wanted this caliber for it's 210 grain flat shooting bullets so that is what I've been trying.  210 grain bullets from Buffalo Arms in .406, .408 and their recommended .410 dia. for Ubertis over Swiss black powder all shoot poorly. As in maybe at best a 8" group at 50 yards. Jameson brass, CCI LR primer. 53 grains of Swiss 1.5 compressed 1/16", .030 v.card wad, SPG lubed BA bullet crimped in the crimp groove. Is my problem with the guns twist rate? I've never been a believer in the theory that a fast twist will shoot lighter/shorter bullets well. Any thoughts would be appreciated.   

Offline Trailrider

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Re: 40-60wcf Trouble
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2019, 09:14:11 pm »
Generally, a fast twist is more for heavier/longer bullets. As an example, I once had a Sharps rifle ostensibly chambered for .45-2.1", with a .451" groove barrel. (This was an E.C. Meacham piece made sometime in the 1870's from M1863 Sharps cartridge conversion carbines.) It would not stabilize anything heavier than 300 grains, versus 405-500 gr bullets used in the .45-70.  IF your rifle will feed a heavier bullet, you might have to go that route.  The only other thing I might suggest is go to a harder bullet, if you can find one, or cast yourself from Lyman #2 equivalent alloy or even harder.  You might have to try  :o smokeless with a hardcast bullet!  :-\
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Offline greyhawk

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Re: 40-60wcf Trouble
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2019, 12:45:37 am »
I purchased a like new looking Uberti Centennial from a dealer on Gun Broker. While these guns are advertised as having a 1 in 40" twist this one appears to measure at 1-21". ??  I wanted this caliber for it's 210 grain flat shooting bullets so that is what I've been trying.  210 grain bullets from Buffalo Arms in .406, .408 and their recommended .410 dia. for Ubertis over Swiss black powder all shoot poorly. As in maybe at best a 8" group at 50 yards. Jameson brass, CCI LR primer. 53 grains of Swiss 1.5 compressed 1/16", .030 v.card wad, SPG lubed BA bullet crimped in the crimp groove. Is my problem with the guns twist rate? I've never been a believer in the theory that a fast twist will shoot lighter/shorter bullets well. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Have you slugged yr bore and checked that you have a good fit boolit?
First thing different I would try is a stouter wad - 45 to 60 thou HDPE - you can cut a few of those out of a disposable ten litre water container from the zupermarket.
Then heavier boolits (yr right, they advertise the 40/60 as a slow twist) my Uberti 45/75 seems to like heavier - but its a 20 twist. Thing is scary accurate if I do my bit. 

Offline Slamfire

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Re: 40-60wcf Trouble
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2019, 06:52:46 am »
 My 40-60 is a Chaparral,, don't know about Uberti's ,, mine has a 1 in 20 twist rate,, shoot 208-210 ,, .406 dia. ( 403168 Lyman  haven't tried 240 gr. ,, yet ,,) 26.5 gr. H- 4198 ( YMMV ),, shoots clean and very, very accurate . Ditto w/ others ,, ck. the bore size.



  smoke'm if ya' got'm ,, Hootmix.

Offline Smith Creek

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Re: 40-60wcf Trouble
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2019, 10:52:42 am »
Thanks for the replies.  I will double check the bore dia. so I know just where I'm at. I don't understand why the Italians chose the faster twists over Winchester's tested and chosen original twist rates. Especially with the 45 cal. guns, people are forced to use heavier bullets to get the best accuracy with the current twist rates. This not only severely limits case capacity for those wanting to stay traditional with black powder but also takes away the advantages of a '76.  Large bore but lighter flat shooting bullets with light recoil. If one has to shoot 400 grain bullets in the 45's they might as well switch to a 1886 in 45-70.

Offline Slamfire

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Re: 40-60wcf Trouble
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2019, 02:23:43 pm »
 Hey ,, Creek,, " Rifling of the earliest Winchester rifles have 5 groves,, Twist was nearly 1 in 26" remained much the same until the end of mfg. in all cal. ,, except for the .50 Express " ( The win. book 1 of 1000 ) Now ! the mfg. try to standard size each cal. ( .40= .410,, etc.,etc. ) saves tooling cost,, ) my guess. Have patience ,, folk's here will help ya' out. I chose the 40-60 for the same reason's you did  ( but I shoot smokeless ).


 smoke'm if ya' got'm ,, Hootmix.

Offline greyhawk

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Re: 40-60wcf Trouble
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2019, 04:44:51 pm »
Thanks for the replies.  I will double check the bore dia. so I know just where I'm at. I don't understand why the Italians chose the faster twists over Winchester's tested and chosen original twist rates. Especially with the 45 cal. guns, people are forced to use heavier bullets to get the best accuracy with the current twist rates. This not only severely limits case capacity for those wanting to stay traditional with black powder but also takes away the advantages of a '76.  Large bore but lighter flat shooting bullets with light recoil. If one has to shoot 400 grain bullets in the 45's they might as well switch to a 1886 in 45-70.

I got one of them too  :) couldnt help it - Chiappa 1886 - shoots a 400 grain over a duplex load - 63 grains of black on top of 5 grains 4227

I wrote "my 45/75 seems to prefer heavier" and it do too but there not a lot in it - we use a 335 grain boolit quite a bit - works nice and yes a bit less recoil - have shot a pointy 476 grain boolit in the '76 over 78 grains of FFG - loaded long ya have to single shot it - Winchester marketed a 450grain x 90 grain PP load for the originals.

For my money the faster twist makes this a way more versatile proposition - slow twist barels will bring you undone quick if the velocity is not up to scratch.   

Offline Smith Creek

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Re: 40-60wcf Trouble
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2019, 08:34:05 am »
OK Guys, I slugged the bore. Here's the process I used, I took a 20-1 bullet that I measured at .410 (right where it should be since that is what Buffalo Arms sold it as). Next I bulged it out with a hammer to .420. I then used a 3" dowel and hammer to pound it into the muzzle, of course it started hard but once it was in I was very easily able to push it through with a longer dowel. It practically fell through.  The slug showed very visible signs of rifling but here's the kicker, after measuring every part of the slug the largest measurement I can get on it is .401  .   ??? I have slugged other bores this way and came up with measurement that are where they should be.  So am I doing something wrong or is this barrel choked at the muzzle????
   

Offline Slamfire

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Re: 40-60wcf Trouble
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2019, 01:18:01 pm »
 I love a mystery,, don't you ? You might try pulling you bolt & toggle links out and push a slug from the chamber end , and when  it gets to being tight push the slug back out from the muzzle end and mic. it . To keep from scaring the chamber,,  drill out the center of a case big enough for your rod and leave the rim for extraction,, ( this helps to center the rod ) . I know this sounds like a lot of hassle but 1/2 way up ( from chamber end ) the bore should be far enough to mic any differences ,, don't think the seller will take the rifle back ( once this " tick " is fixed you'll have a great rifle,, and a good campfire story ).

 smoke'm if ya' got'm ,, Hootmix.

Offline greyhawk

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Re: 40-60wcf Trouble
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2019, 06:55:26 pm »
I love a mystery,, don't you ? You might try pulling you bolt & toggle links out and push a slug from the chamber end , and when  it gets to being tight push the slug back out from the muzzle end and mic. it . To keep from scaring the chamber,,  drill out the center of a case big enough for your rod and leave the rim for extraction,, ( this helps to center the rod ) . I know this sounds like a lot of hassle but 1/2 way up ( from chamber end ) the bore should be far enough to mic any differences ,, don't think the seller will take the rifle back ( once this " tick " is fixed you'll have a great rifle,, and a good campfire story ).

 smoke'm if ya' got'm ,, Hootmix.

Yup do this (he beat me to it!) somebody told me that pedersoli is choking their barrels just a tad -also bin told that Uberti '76 has Pedersoli barrel ? Dunno 'bout that but my 45/75 has darn nice barrel on it.

Offline Smith Creek

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Re: 40-60wcf Trouble
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2019, 10:13:01 am »
Thanks again for the advice, I'll let you know when I get the gun apart to check the bore from the breech end. I'm not experienced with a choked barrel and have to wonder how tightening things up that much at the muzzle is a good thing.

Offline dusty texian

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Re: 40-60wcf Trouble
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2019, 07:50:19 am »
I purchased a like new looking Uberti Centennial from a dealer on Gun Broker. While these guns are advertised as having a 1 in 40" twist this one appears to measure at 1-21". ??  I wanted this caliber for it's 210 grain flat shooting bullets so that is what I've been trying.  210 grain bullets from Buffalo Arms in .406, .408 and their recommended .410 dia. for Ubertis over Swiss black powder all shoot poorly. As in maybe at best a 8" group at 50 yards. Jameson brass, CCI LR primer. 53 grains of Swiss 1.5 compressed 1/16", .030 v.card wad, SPG lubed BA bullet crimped in the crimp groove. Is my problem with the guns twist rate? I've never been a believer in the theory that a fast twist will shoot lighter/shorter bullets well. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
                                                       Hello Smith Creek , I have two comments about getting your 40-60 shooting .The ROT of 1-21 or 1-22 should shoot the 210 gr. bullet better than 6-8 " groups @ 50 yd. mine does shoot the 210 gr bullet very well with a ROT of 1 in 22" from a 22" barrel.  I would recommend using 2ff or 3fff Bp. and up the charge / speed  .  A choked barrel is a good thing if your barrel truly is choked . I would be interested in hearing the measurement's you come up with from in front of the chamber and then up front at the muzzle . A lot of schutzen guy's lap their bores in front of the chamber to achieve the choked bore . Hope this help's you to get the rifle shooting better . ,,,DT