Author Topic: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?  (Read 17997 times)

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2018, 04:07:20 PM »
Why do they say the bullets are indistinguishable between the Henry, 1866, and M1873 rifles since the 44 henry and 44wcf bullets have a different diameter? Are the ones doing the study not aware those rifles shoot different cartridges?
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Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2018, 04:49:55 PM »
Why do they say the bullets are indistinguishable between the Henry, 1866, and M1873 rifles since the 44 henry and 44wcf bullets have a different diameter? Are the ones doing the study not aware those rifles shoot different cartridges?

That is the part that still confuses me. I wish I could visit the storage of these bullets and cases and look them over myself.
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Offline Buck Stinson

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2018, 07:09:55 PM »
I think what they mean is, the .44 caliber bullets they found, were in a condition that made it impossible to tell what model rifle they were fired from.

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #23 on: Today at 06:42:18 AM »

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2018, 07:17:07 PM »
That is the part that still confuses me. I wish I could visit the storage of these bullets and cases and look them over myself.

I know it would be interesting, it seems if it is intact enough to distinguish the rifling then the diameter would be able to be determined between approx .427 and .446

Maybe not but one would think
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Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2018, 09:14:25 PM »
I know it would be interesting, it seems if it is intact enough to distinguish the rifling then the diameter would be able to be determined between approx .427 and .446

Maybe not but one would think

All four bullets were recovered from the battlefield. Could be from later hunting parties etc but recovered nonetheless. In Dr Scott's book "Archaeological Insights to The Custer Battlefield...1984...", on page 61...he said 14 44CF cases were recovered [lists archaeological ID numbers for each cartridge case] he describes all of the 44-40 cases were of the Winchester-Milbank-type primer. 

 The four bullets are all .44 calibers and you guys might can identify them, their weight, the rifling twist etc and tell if they were fired from a 73', 60' or 66'.

What is not well known is for less than one year, it has been rumored that the first 44 WCF cartridges were paper patched. Could very well have used some left over 44 bullets from previous years. There is so little information on these first months that I just can not get a consistent pattern except that they were Milbank primed cases. It is also rumored that they were also copper but I just do not know. Lack of deformation indicates none of them met their mark and landed at zero velocity.

I hope you Henry/66' guys can help me out here.
Chasing The 44-40 Website: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester

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Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2018, 09:27:07 PM »
Scott also lists on page 68 that they recovered 176 44 ["Henry"] cases, cartridges and bullets. He also said they identified 55 distinctive different Henry's or 66's fired those shots. Of the bullets that could be identified, there were 13 Single groove, 22 Three groove raised base, 2 Two groove with raised "H", 12 two groove flat base. Non could be identified as being shot from a 44CF.

Through email correspondence, he insists they were 220gr
Chasing The 44-40 Website: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester

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Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2018, 06:33:17 AM »
If they can tell enough information to tell the bullets were fired from different rifles but not distinguish between a 66 or 73 rifle which has a different diameter all together ???
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Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2018, 07:02:42 AM »
In another book"Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle..1989...., page 112 lists for the Henry (which typically includes the 66')...202 cases, 252 bullets matched to 108 rifles used. Winchester 1873'...21 cases, 0 bullets matched to 8 rifles. Eventually 11 rifles were confirmed as well as one used south at the battle of the rose bud for a total of 12 but that is based off my memory..

Battle of the Rose Bud
https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/44wcf-battle-of-the-rosebud
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Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2018, 07:10:57 AM »
Chasing The 44-40 Website: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester

Chasing The 44-40 Forum: https://44-40.forumotion.com

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2018, 12:55:03 PM »
I know this information may be taking away from the main topic of how effective was it but I was wanting to back up a wee bit to the very beginning of the 73' and is why I included the Henry and 66' information. Tests conducted in Switzerland in 1866 showed 12"x12" target groups at 300 paces. Effectiveness then was better than now but documents prove all three were very effective. Aside from the loading and repeated shooting of 14 cartridges, accuracy was effective as well. Power effectiveness is harder to prove and all we have is the Indian wars and hunting stories. The Indians proved they were very effective according to the archaeological mapping of Indian positions around the Bighorn Battlefield. Much of the artifacts were long gone as well as many artifacts discovered on private lands in the same areas. This map of the Custer Last Stand area shows the locations off all of the artifacts found during the 1984 survey. The cluster in the upper right Calhoun Hill) are Henry/66 items. The 73's were there, just not many...they were still new.

First...the earliest, first style  44 Winchester ammunition box shows a photo of the 44 cartridge and were used from 1873 to 1874.This gives us a time frame that would make one believe all early ammunition would have been used up. The cartridge on the box shows the use of the Milbank primer (factory dimple) but a bullet has no exposed lube groove. It is reported that the 44-40 cases recovered were of the Milbank primed cases but the battle was late enough to have used ammunition from the second label style box with an exposed lube groove and boxer primers. Only a few people have actually seen the artifacts. The only three 1st style boxes known do not even have the Milbank primed cases in them and they were manufactured only for a few months. The second style box manufactured between 1874 to 1876 shows a boxer primed case but also shows a bullet with an exposed lube groove. This should have been the common items found date wise. How many of you have actually seen a 44-40 cartridge with an exposed bullet lube groove? Indicating that it may have used the same bullets as were used in the 66'. This is were I just don't know the answers. We do see the 44 Henry with exposed lube grooves so just maybe.....

This early 44 Winchester 73' cartridge shows the same bullet design with the exposed lube groove as the Henry Flat.



Now we just have to figure out what bullet was originally used in the Winchester 73'.

Winchester Swaged bullets found in the 1875 catalog do not appear to be the same leading me to believe that the early 44-40 bullets were heavier and longer than the 1875 swaged 200gr bullets. Maybe the Henry 220gr or 225g bullets. This theory would be more in line to why I was told the bullets they found that may have matched the Winchester 73....were 220gr bullets. Since they could not confirm, they listed all bullets founf to be from the Henry or the 66'.

Chasing The 44-40 Website: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester

Chasing The 44-40 Forum: https://44-40.forumotion.com

Offline Buck Stinson

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2018, 03:05:04 PM »
Bryan,
Where is the .44 Caliber Winchester 1873 cartridge with exposed grease groove you mention.  Sounds like you have a picture of one, but it's not in your post.

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2018, 03:08:16 PM »
Bryan,
Where is the .44 Caliber Winchester 1873 cartridge with exposed grease groove you mention.  Sounds like you have a picture of one, but it's not in your post.

Apparently the photo link is not working, here is the direct link to the web page..scroll down just a tad and you will see it.

https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/
Chasing The 44-40 Website: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester

Chasing The 44-40 Forum: https://44-40.forumotion.com

Offline Buck Stinson

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2018, 03:33:18 PM »
Should have looked a little deeper.  I too have an 1875 catalog and found it pictured there. Thanks for the help.

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2018, 08:46:42 PM »
If they can tell enough information to tell the bullets were fired from different rifles but not distinguish between a 66 or 73 rifle which has a different diameter all together ???

Cliff, I have seen my fair share of conflicts between certain people of certain professions...those that think they know it and those that actually do. Funny how sometimes those that get a monthly paycheck know less than those that actually have a passion for what they do and don't get a paycheck at all. On another forum there are some certain cartridge collectors that know a bit more than some certain other people. I know of at least two guys that were there that were not treated very well and left only after a few days. After hearing some of what they had to say, I tend to learn more toward what they say rather than some others. One example is that just because an empty cartridge case is found on the ground does not mean that is where they weapon was fired but more in line of that it were the weapon was emptied. Anyhow.....I am still digging for information.
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Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2019, 02:40:58 PM »
I know this information may be taking away from the main topic of how effective was it but I was wanting to back up a wee bit to the very beginning of the 73' and is why I included the Henry and 66' information. Tests conducted in Switzerland in 1866 showed 12"x12" target groups at 300 paces. Effectiveness then was better than now but documents prove all three were very effective. Aside from the loading and repeated shooting of 14 cartridges, accuracy was effective as well. Power effectiveness is harder to prove and all we have is the Indian wars and hunting stories. The Indians proved they were very effective according to the archaeological mapping of Indian positions around the Bighorn Battlefield. Much of the artifacts were long gone as well as many artifacts discovered on private lands in the same areas. This map of the Custer Last Stand area shows the locations off all of the artifacts found during the 1984 survey. The cluster in the upper right Calhoun Hill) are Henry/66 items. The 73's were there, just not many...they were still new.

First...the earliest, first style  44 Winchester ammunition box shows a photo of the 44 cartridge and were used from 1873 to 1874.This gives us a time frame that would make one believe all early ammunition would have been used up. The cartridge on the box shows the use of the Milbank primer (factory dimple) but a bullet has no exposed lube groove. It is reported that the 44-40 cases recovered were of the Milbank primed cases but the battle was late enough to have used ammunition from the second label style box with an exposed lube groove and boxer primers. Only a few people have actually seen the artifacts. The only three 1st style boxes known do not even have the Milbank primed cases in them and they were manufactured only for a few months. The second style box manufactured between 1874 to 1876 shows a boxer primed case but also shows a bullet with an exposed lube groove. This should have been the common items found date wise. How many of you have actually seen a 44-40 cartridge with an exposed bullet lube groove? Indicating that it may have used the same bullets as were used in the 66'. This is were I just don't know the answers. We do see the 44 Henry with exposed lube grooves so just maybe.....

This early 44 Winchester 73' cartridge shows the same bullet design with the exposed lube groove as the Henry Flat.



Now we just have to figure out what bullet was originally used in the Winchester 73'.

Winchester Swaged bullets found in the 1875 catalog do not appear to be the same leading me to believe that the early 44-40 bullets were heavier and longer than the 1875 swaged 200gr bullets. Maybe the Henry 220gr or 225g bullets. This theory would be more in line to why I was told the bullets they found that may have matched the Winchester 73....were 220gr bullets. Since they could not confirm, they listed all bullets founf to be from the Henry or the 66'.



I always thought bullets back then for lever actions were flat rather than pointed so as to not risk a point setting off a primer in front of it while loaded in the magazine tube.


Interesting information.

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2019, 05:19:22 PM »
I always thought bullets back then for lever actions were flat rather than pointed so as to not risk a point setting off a primer in front of it while loaded in the magazine tube.


Interesting information.

The pointed bullet is a Henry round.
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Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2019, 09:10:32 PM »
The pointed bullet is a Henry round.

Ahh.  And those are rimfire

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2019, 09:32:24 PM »
Correct
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Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2019, 03:33:11 PM »
Back to the question...

How effective is the 44-40 rifle?

Well, I know this is in the Winchester 73' GROUP and I already posted with information that relates to the 44-40 use in that rifle.

Below is a link to this forum that relates to modern high pressure loads safe for the Marlin 1894 and these loads SHOULD NOT be used in the weak action 73' rifles and revolvers nor for CAS. This load does not really prove one way or the other how effective it really is but is an example of how accurate it can be at 265 yards. Certainly not a modern "exotic" cartridge but it is what it is.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,51565.msg736447.html#msg736447
Chasing The 44-40 Website: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester

Chasing The 44-40 Forum: https://44-40.forumotion.com

Offline Boone May

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Re: How effective is the .44-40 rifle?
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2019, 09:48:40 AM »
In my research of firearms used by the invaders during the Johnson County, Wyoming war of 1892 there were sixteen 1873s, of which seven are carbines.  I have not completed the research through the Cody museum so there may be more.  Ten of those were .44 WCF, mostly carbines.  The other six were .38 WCF, again a mixture of carbines and rifles.

Most of the 1873's were carried by the mercenary Texans.   Most of the cattlemen and stock detectives preferred "big-bore" rifles, such as the 1876, 1886 and a few Sharps and Martini's.  I suspect the Texans bought their 1873's in Cheyenne when the posse was formed before heading north to Johnson County.  The cattlemen provided money to outfit the expedition.  Nine of the 1873's are late serial numbers in the 1890-91 date range.

I think its safe to say that in its time, the .44 WCF was considered an effective round.
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