1876 Winchester parts gun carbine build.

[dusty texian]

Thanks CCG ,  sure looks like it . Wish I knew the story on the short forearm . ,,,,DT

[Coal Creek Griff]

I'd like to know the background too. as I recall, the daltons bought brand new revolvers just prior to the Coffeyville raid. I wonder if their rifles were new as well. I have to think that that information is out there somewhere...

CC Griff

[dusty texian]

I'd like to know the background too. as I recall, the daltons bought brand new revolvers just prior to the Coffeyville raid. I wonder if their rifles were new as well. I have to think that that information is out there somewhere...

CC Griff

    I think the info. is out there too. The Daltons met their end in 1892 I think , so the rifle should not have been that old , wish I knew if it was a special order rifle or a custom job from a frontier gunsmith and why was it done . I did read also that they had purchased some engraved nickel plated SAA revolvers , so they did fancy their guns . ,,,DT .

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[yahoody]

Here is what I think I know

Grat by all accounts was a  pretty good rifle shot.  He use to  make a tour of the local turkey shoots and clean up on the locals.  The 38-56 was a lwt rifle with some power for the day in a lever gun.    The rifle he took to Coffeeville (and in the museum there) was a special order "short rifle".    Not too uncommon.  The rifle makes since with that cartridge and his profession...on both sides of the law prior.

44-40 was the next step down and everything else was a big step up for caliber and cartridge.

They did order up new engraved Colts prior to the Coffeeville raid.  A few of them  have been around since them or have been re-found more recently.  All have been documented to one shipment of Colt's.

Not the same with the long guns.  Not everyone in the Dalton gang had a long gun @ Coffeeville.

[dusty texian]

Cant imagine what one of those Colts would bring , big Dollars . I exploded if that's the correct word for it the pic. that CCG posted , I think the rifle is custom / gunsmith cut-down . The Magazine hanger looks to be a straight dovetail , not factory Winchester done . And where the fore end tip tenon should have been appears to be a dovetail plug . Also the magazine plug fits under the barrel ,that barrel cut for the plug tab looks to big . And last the fore end wood is definitely  cut-down  Take a close look and see what Y'all think .  ,,,DT

[greyhawk]

Here is what I think I know

Grat by all accounts was a  pretty good rifle shot.  He use to  make a tour of the local turkey shoots and clean up on the locals.  The 38-56 was a lwt rifle with some power for the day in a lever gun.    The rifle he took to Coffeeville (and in the museum there) was a special order "short rifle".    Not too uncommon.  The rifle makes since with that cartridge and his profession...on both sides of the law prior.

Yahoody
that fits my take on the picture
have a look here ya can see the old dovetail cut for the forend where I put the arrow
Then look at the scabbard wear at the muzzle - that rifle done a lot of miles in a leather boot

[greyhawk]

Here is what I think I know

Grat by all accounts was a  pretty good rifle shot.  He use to  make a tour of the local turkey shoots and clean up on the locals.  The 38-56 was a lwt rifle with some power for the day in a lever gun.    The rifle he took to Coffeeville (and in the museum there) was a special order "short rifle".    Not too uncommon.  The rifle makes since with that cartridge and his profession...on both sides of the law prior.

Yahoody
that fits my take on the picture
have a look here ya can see the old dovetail cut for the forend where I put the arrow
Then look at the scabbard wear at the muzzle - that rifle done a lot of miles in a leather boot

Just my opinion but I reckon he made that rifle look 100% better by shorting the forend - full length forend on a trapper length barrel always looks crummy to me

[Coal Creek Griff]

I found a higher resolution copy of the original photo, in case it helps.  Of course, being limited to 400KB for photos, I had to reduce the resolution, so maybe it will look the same as the others.  Maybe a close-up of the rifle will help...

CC Griff

[dusty texian]

I must say that is a very nice looking short rifle . Would be a great one to copy . My 86 better hide or it may end up looking like that .,,,DT

[Coal Creek Griff]

Just to add more fun to the discussion, here's another one of those "internet photos" that I can't vouch for.

CC Griff

[greyhawk]

Just to add more fun to the discussion, here's another one of those "internet photos" that I can't vouch for.

CC Griff

Looks like those boys liked the short rifle !!!!!

[yahoody]

Factory short rifle or local gun smith modified, hard to tell from photos.  A serial number  would tell you what it left the factory as.   I don't doubt it was the short forearm version of the '86 in this photo that was in Coffeeville.  I think it is still in the museum there.  But don't know that for a fact.



I had to look up some old references.  If they are  any good I was mistaken it was Bob Dalton that was the real shooter in the bunch but all the Dalton boys could shoot is what Heck Thomas mentioned in his writings.

I was also wrong on the long guns.   Some of the Daltons brought their new engraved Colts to Coffeeville that Bob had special ordered (10 of them) under an assumed name earlier.  But not all 10 were there by the court records.    But they also all brought Winchesters.  All the guns were all rounded up and put under lock and key after the hold up.  Court records identify them now.  Although I have never seen the complete list.    It is documented that Bob Dalton also had a 38-56 1886.  It was eventually sold at a Sheriff's sale.   Besides the short rifle that we see in photos supposedly there was a 38-56 1886 carbine there as well.  Another nice shooting saddle gun.

Suspect there was a lot of hide and seek going on from the local law with the guns the gang used after the town shot them up and were still talking a lynching.   

I have seen so much misinformation on the guns they used hard to believe much past the one short rifle Winchester and the engraved Colts belong to the Daltons.  Local law in those days kept and used any firearm the took off a bad man.  Many of those guns got passed along time and time again.  Sure would like to see those old court records and see what they say. 

[greyhawk]

Factory short rifle or local gun smith modified, hard to tell from photos.  A serial number  would tell you what it left the factory as.   I don't doubt it was the short forearm version of the '86 in this photo that was in Coffeeville.  I think it is still in the museum there.  But don't know that for a fact.



I had to look up some old references.  If they are  any good I was mistaken it was Bob Dalton that was the real shooter in the bunch but all the Dalton boys could shoot is what Heck Thomas mentioned in his writings.

I was also wrong on the long guns.   Some of the Daltons brought their new engraved Colts to Coffeeville that Bob had special ordered (10 of them) under an assumed name earlier.  But not all 10 were there by the court records.    But they also all brought Winchesters.  All the guns were all rounded up and put under lock and key after the hold up.  Court records identify them now.  Although I have never seen the complete list.    It is documented that Bob Dalton also had a 38-56 1886.  It was eventually sold at a Sheriff's sale.   Besides the short rifle that we see in photos supposedly there was a 38-56 1886 carbine there as well.  Another nice shooting saddle gun.

Suspect there was a lot of hide and seek going on from the local law with the guns the gang used after the town shot them up and were still talking a lynching.   

I have seen so much misinformation on the guns they used hard to believe much past the one short rifle Winchester and the engraved Colts belong to the Daltons.  Local law in those days kept and used any firearm the took off a bad man.  Many of those guns got passed along time and time again.  Sure would like to see those old court records and see what they say. 

Good picture !
Whoever did the job on that gun had a good eye - the shortened forend wood has put a nice balance back into the look of it

[dusty texian]

Final scraping done sanding stain and oil next . Liking it so far .,,,DT

[yahoody]

Looks really good Dusty!

[dusty texian]

Looks really good Dusty!

                                      Thanks Yahoody , I like the SG butt stock better than the carbine stock for feel fit and looks . This is the handiest 76 I have .  Cant decide on a metal finish considering a plating of tin on the receiver  butt plate and fore end cap ,  blue barrel  and CC the rest .,,,DT

[pinto beans]

Mr. Dusty that is a fine looking rifle and coming along nicely!  Thanks for sharing it with us!!

[yahoody]

…..I like the SG butt stock better than the carbine stock for feel fit and looks . This is the handiest 76 I have .  Cant decide on a metal finish considering a plating of tin on the receiver  butt plate and fore end cap ,  blue barrel  and CC the rest .,,,DT

Compliment is well deserved.  Really nice work on the rifle.  I've liked it since you started the project.
Have you seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkMuHbQxNF8&feature=youtu.be

I have a button mag '73 I built 25 years ago or more now.  Put a Shilen match barrel on it, in .45.  It does shoot.  But now I'd rather have it a 44-40      Live and learn...always a good thing      Nickel plated the cap, butt plate and receiver.  Little long in tooth now because it has been used but  I still like it.

Have yet to rebarrel my 20" '76.  But it just doesn't see right with a full mag tube in  a 20".   Got a 1886 production '73 I want to rebarrel as well.  But if wishes were pigs I could fly.  Hate it when others are undecided on a project and I just haven't gotten off the dime on either of there, dang it!

Here is my nickel '73.   I have two sets of wood for it.  I like the original smooth set the best.



And my '76 before and after.  I am thinking it too should be a button mag gun with a nice tapered octagon 23" barrel.

[yahoody]

Dusty is this carbine build still 45-60 and a 22" round barrel?

[dusty texian]

Compliment is well deserved.  Really nice work on the rifle.  I've liked it since you started the project.
Have you seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkMuHbQxNF8&feature=youtu.be

I have a button mag '73 I built 25 years ago or more now.  Put a Shilen match barrel on it, in .45.  It does shoot.  But now I'd rather have it a 44-40      Live and learn...always a good thing      Nickel plated the cap, butt plate and receiver.  Little long in tooth now because it has been used but  I still like it.

Have yet to rebarrel my 20" '76.  But it just doesn't see right with a full mag tube in  a 20".   Got a 1886 production '73 I want to rebarrel as well.  But if wishes were pigs I could fly.  Hate it when others are undecided on a project and I just haven't gotten off the dime on either of there, dang it!

Here is my nickel '73.   I have two sets of wood for it.  I like the original smooth set the best.



And my '76 before and after.  I am thinking it too should be a button mag gun with a nice tapered octagon 23" barrel

                                                            Thanks Yahoody , that is a rack full of Dandies !  You have fine taste in firearms . Leaning toward the idea of plating the project gun . I saw a 66 or 73 yrs. back that had been coated in Tin , story was it was for sea service  , it had a look I would like to duplicate . A nickel coating would be very nice , like that 73 of yours . Thanks for the link to the video , I had never seen it , was very good . That is a great story that follows the Presidio gun. If I had one I'd be figuring out how to cut the fore end down to match the barrel length , that's just me . Yes the parts gun is still 22"rnd.45-60 wcf .  Its a good balance rifle and cartridge combo , very handy .,,,,,DT