Author Topic: Careful what you ask for ....  (Read 5757 times)

Offline Coffinmaker

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Careful what you ask for ....
« on: March 07, 2016, 02:25:02 PM »
I'm retired, pulled down my shingle, sold off my machine tools sos to set back and relax.  Then I discovered I like to play wit Cap Guns.
Oh bother.  Cap Guns out of the box, are KITS.  Some remanufacture required.  I knew/know that.  But, what the heck, work on my own
guns, build some interesting Snubbies, build some interesting never never Frankenpistols.  FUN>  CAPITOL FUN!!!  Where am I going.
Oh Yea,  I remember.........
My Cap Gun shooting pardner alluded to a problem he had.  Three, second generation Colt 1851s.  None of them would run a full stage
without problems.  I said "Ok" I'll take a peek.  WHAT KRAP!!  I've seen/worked on other second gen Colt Cap Guns in the past, none
were what you could call "good" but these three are ....... KRAP.  Normal Uberti Open Top design stuff.  Barrel to arbor fit bad, timing
bad, bolt poorly fit, a good 1/2 inch of hammer overtravel .. basically, three rebuilds.  Oh, and one of them was originally built from ASM
parts.  Uberti parts, ASM parts, nothing about these guns is Colt except the roll marks on the frame and barrel.

If you have an opportunity to acquire these guns ........ PASS.  Save the money and buy a Uberti.  Since your basically buying a Uberti
anyway, save some money.  Especially if it's an ASM provided gun.  What garbage.  (Burma Shave)

Coffinmaker

Offline Dick Dastardly

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2016, 04:23:58 PM »
Walt Kirst fitted his Kirst Konverter cylinders to my brace of 1860 Army open tops.  Sweet, but fragile compared to my brace of ROAs.  Yes, with some good smithing and TLC, I really enjoy the 1860s.  Nothing points like them.  But, as said, they are fragile.

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Offline LonesomePigeon

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2016, 02:25:07 PM »
Coffinmaker, do you know the approximate serial  number range on these guns? Which one has the ASM parts and are the ASM parts the internals or are they the major parts(like barrel, frame and cylinder), or both?

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #3 on: Today at 05:30:23 AM »

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2016, 03:31:41 PM »
Sure.  Still have them apart.  Sourcing some parts to put em back together with.  #5760 is most probably an ASM gun.  It required an
ASM Wedge after fitting the Barrel/Arbor.  A US Grant Commemorative # 3235 and a Gen Lee Commemorative #930.  There is no
particular pattern to the numbers.  They all purport to be Colt.  Doesn't really matter, they are all requiring a rebuild.

I didn't ask, but I am hoping my friend bought these guns "right" 'cause the rebuild is going to be a bundle.  Two of the guns also had
some real Mickey Mouse work done to the hands by the previous owner or owners.  Really butchered up.

I'm going to make nice shooters out of them, but I know what "some" guns, supposedly "Colt" that were built from Uberti or ASM parts
can go for.  Strictly pricing based on the "Colt" name, not the quality of the guns.  The basic quality of the guns is KRAP!!

Oh the rest of your question, the ASM gun is an ASM gun.  Frame, internals, the whole kit and caboodle.  My reserved evaluation of the guns is "Nice anchor for a Goose Decoy."

Coffinmaker

PS:  If your ever offered the opportunity to acquire one or more of these second generation "Colts."  Don't do it by mail.  If you can't give
them a FULL inspection, up close and personal, PASS!!

Online Blair

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2016, 04:12:47 PM »
It use to be that Uberti and Euroarms maintained a very close and tight control over replacement parts of the arms they manufactured.
Another words they made all their replacement part in house. However it is important to note here that many Italian arms makers shared model arms types with each other.
Many other manufactures would farm out their replacement part to the lowest bid, every few years or so.
ASM did this, and it got to the point, that AMS parts didn't even fit their own firearms. No quality control!
Armi Sport still does this to this day. Your may have a 10 year old AS made gun that you can't get new made parts to fit.
Euroarms is no more and Uberty is owned by Bereta and who knows who else is involved anymore?

My point being, when you order parts for any firearm, you have to know pretty much the history of the firearm, to be able to insure you order the correct parts.
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Offline Lefty Dude

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2016, 05:06:36 PM »
I will take a new Pietta over a Second Gen. Colt C&B Revolver, every day and twice on Sunday.

I did the Hand plunger mod to a pair of Second Gen. Colts, the frames were different. I could not believe the difference. I almost passed on the mod for one. There was very little room to drill the hole between the grip screw hole and the top of the frame. I made the hole but it was tight, had very little room in the hand channel. Must have been an ASM frame or such.

Yes, Coffinmaker you speak the truth.

And then, there is the Signature Series. A real POS !

Offline LonesomePigeon

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2016, 11:58:43 PM »
Thanks for the info Coffinmaker. 5760 would be an early C-Series. I don't think Colt dealt directly with the Italians outside of maybe the pre-production phase, but that's just a guess. I think it was Val Forgett that was contracted to acquire parts for the C-Series and Lou Imperato for the F-Series so those guys would have been the ones who acquired the parts from Italy.

Lefty Dude, I believe some of the frames were made in the US.

Offline Galen

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2016, 11:29:31 AM »
Second generation Colt BP guns - shipped to Iver Johnson in parts, assembled and finished by them. These Colt revolvers never saw the Colt factory! Pisses me off that I was sucked into buying one after reading all the hype in the gun magazines.

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2016, 03:54:54 PM »
Hey Hey Hey Lefty!!
Absolutely.  Pietta manufactures their guns on CNC Machines.  The New Build Pietta guns are so much easier to set to run there is actually no contest.  Replacement part only require modest if any fitting.  The coil spring and plunger mod is easy peasy.  Well, I could go on,
but there is just no contest.

These Second Gen "Colts" are a joke.  That simple.  Typical Uberti build.  You would think Uberti would have figured out how to match
the bore in the barrel lug to the Arbor by now.  Nope.  Not even new build Uberti are anywhere near correct.  The list of corrections these
guns needed, just to become shooters, is ridiculous.  I'm finally to the point where they run well enough I'll put the Cap Rakes in so
they can be shot for CAS.  For those folks who don't have the learned skills and tools to finish these KITS, the guns would be a Nightmare.

I'm betting there are any number of these guns, just hanging on walls.  Or stuffed in the back of bureau drawers because those happy
new owners of "Genuine New Colt Percussion Guns" couldn't get them to work.  Much less ... run.

Coffinmaker

Offline Bishop Creek

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2016, 01:40:37 PM »
Thanks for the info Coffinmaker. 5760 would be an early C-Series. I don't think Colt dealt directly with the Italians outside of maybe the pre-production phase, but that's just a guess. I think it was Val Forgett that was contracted to acquire parts for the C-Series and Lou Imperato for the F-Series so those guys would have been the ones who acquired the parts from Italy.

Lefty Dude, I believe some of the frames were made in the US.

From my reading, Imperato made the frames for the Signature Series guns in the US, but both the "C" and "F" series guns were made from rough castings from Uberti and ASM. The F series were made at Imperato's Iver Johnson factory, but the C series were assembled at the Colt factory.

In my limited personal experience with the few "Colt's" 2nd Gen cap and ball revolvers that I have owned, the Signature Series guns were better made, even though they have the short arbor problem too.

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2016, 08:38:56 AM »
I have two second gen 61's. One my uncle bought new in the 70's. The other I picked up for a good price at a gun show.

I wouldn't call them crap but the arbor fit is/was way wrong. Otherwise they are no worse than a Uberti.

A friend recently picked up a what appears unfired 51 second gen. Beautiful to look at but otherwise it is pure crap. I told him not to shoot it but sell it and buy two Piettas with the money. They would need work to be right but chances are he would get something he could at least shoot out of the box.

I agree with Lefty Dude, I would just as soon have a Pietta over these others for a kit gun to go shoot with. The Piettas of late seem to be the best chances of getting a decent one.
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Offline Dick Dastardly

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2016, 07:43:24 PM »
I was fortunate to have a pard offer me my used Pietta 1860 44 Cal. Open Tops for $200.00 for the pair.  I gave them to Walt Kirst to have his Kirst Konverter cylinders fitted.  As I've said, these guns are fragile compared to my brace of ROAs, but they point easy and hit what I'm lookin' at.  Pietta made them and Walt told me that at that time he felt the Pietta guns were so improved that he preferred working on them.

I since have had to replace springs and stuff, but I still like these guns for CAS matches.  I shoot exclusively Cowboy 45 Special brass with 1.3cc of FFFg Schuetzen black powder pushing the little EPP-UG 45 150 grain bullets lube sized to .454".

Plenty of smoke and flames, not too much recoil and just plain fun to shoot.  I'm thinkn' of getting another brace of 'em for spares.

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Offline Lefty Dude

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2016, 09:19:38 PM »
Pietta has in the US inventory the 5 1/2" 1860 Sheriff's Model with fluted cylinder's and the new style Navy Grip. If one were to lower the hammers, this is a Frontiersman Gunfighters dream.

Judah Macabee bought a Pair at Winter Range from Pietta. They are oh, so sweet.

He bought them from Pietta, I have no idea which of the Dealers has them in stock.

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Careful what you ask for ....
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2016, 10:04:15 PM »
Hey Lefty  :D

I have a pair of Pietta 5" barrel'd 1860s.  Have Army Grips on them though (I prefer Army Grips anyway) and I haven't seen any new
1960s with the "new pattern" Navy Grips ... yet.

I do however shoot Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter.  With Pietta Guns (improved) and actually prefer the OEM hammer.  Just old enough
to be crotchety I suppose.  The Pietta guns however are the Beez Kneez.  I have shot more clean matches with my Cap Guns than I
ever shot with suppositories.  Oh, almost forgot, I shoot almost exclusively Snubbies.  Any barrel over 3 1/2 inches is wasted steel  ;D

Coffinmaker

 

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