Current Colt Style Percussion Revolvers vs. Originals - Reliability Question

Started by Ike Kant, July 23, 2015, 12:28:39 AM

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Ike Kant

Back in the day, were the original Colt sidearms as bad as what we have available today minus any of the mods and upgrades? 
"We should come home from afar,  from adventures and perils and discoveries every day, with new experiences and character." - Henry David Thoreau

Mogorilla

Well, not sure what you mean.  I own no modern firearms.  I do own 10 percussion revolvers and 1 flintlock (work in progress).   Of the 10 percussion pistols, I had one that was a kit, so 11 in total, all Pietta.  Other than the kit, whose fault lies with the assembler, not the producer, all function flawlessly.  I get nice groupings, never have jams or misfires, except for one with bad nipples.  Ordered the tresso ones and it to is a dream.   (oh, and I am knocking on every piece of wood I can find after making that statement).   
That said, we shoot them way more than our 19th century compatriots did.  Way more.  So, the Italian made versions see way more action than anything Col. Colt produced.   I have never owned and Uberti pistol (do have an Uberti Henry), but I will stand with Pietta anytime.  Just my $0.02

Oh, and I have a Pietta 1860 Colt that has easily had 2500 shots through it, it is still tight, and have only had to replace one spring in the 12 years I have been shooting it and that was last year.

Blair

Ike,

The Military contract system at the time of the Civil War does not allow for many unusable arms to pass the final acceptance inspection.
Arms that do not pass muster from the Military inspectors were sent back, to be replaced and/or repaired at the makers expense.

This is not the case with civilian/commercial arms production.
My best,
Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21

Fox Creek Kid

The originals were not shot to regulate POA at the factory, hence many shot way off from the sights from what I have read. My bigger concern would have been for the cones (nipples) as there was no ability to machine as precise as today.

Ike Kant

Mogorilla:  I have no experience with Pietta Colts.  My CAS shooters have all been Ubertis and all operated flawlessly albeit after much modification and smoothing by a renowned master gunsmith.  These revolvers were heavily used and helped me win two first place class wins at the SASS High Plains Regional in Cheyenne plus numerous local CAS meets.  Based upon your experience perhaps Piettas might have been a viable consideration as well.  I have also owned many 2nd gen Colts in the past but none were ever fired.

Blair:  Ah the good old days.  I recently wrote a rather stern letter to the marketing folks at Uberti but not surprisingly never received a reply.

Fox Creek Kid:  That poa problem has always left me scratching my head.  The best explanation I have found was that when the average soldier fired at an opposing cavalryman he tended to aim at the horse - the larger target.  With the gun shooting high he was more likely to eliminate the human threat while making the horse available for capture.  

The last CW vet died when I was six.  Oddly, dad wouldn't let me borrow the car in order to go and speak with him about his experience with Colt six shooters during the N/S conflict.
"We should come home from afar,  from adventures and perils and discoveries every day, with new experiences and character." - Henry David Thoreau

Fox Creek Kid

Quote from: Ike Kant on July 23, 2015, 05:53:23 PM...Fox Creek Kid:  That poa problem has always left me scratching my head.  The best explanation I have found was that when the average soldier fired at an opposing cavalryman he tended to aim at the horse - the larger target.  With the gun shooting high he was more likely to eliminate the human threat while making the horse available for capture...

I should have been more specific in meaning off to one side (windage) rather than high (or low for that matter). In his book Sixguns Elmer Keith and another fella shot two original Colt Dragoons and both shot high if I recall and way off to one side.

Coffinmaker

Wheeeeeeee !!  Oh goody goody ...... call me .... call me ..... is it my turn??  Got my hand up!!!  I'm ready!!
First Caveat.  I was one of those rare hard to find honest Gunsmiths.  Then I retired.  Several reasons that don't matter.  But ..... I made a righteous living working on CAS guns for the better part of 20 years.  So ..........

In direct response to the OP.  No.  The offerings from Colt in the heyday of the percussion handgun were no where near as problematic as
the guns built by the reproduction industry.  I hate the word "Clone."  Todays guns are in no way "Clones."  I'd like to personally shoot the
twerp who first applied the term to reproduction 19th century firearms.

Uberti:  Second caveat.  I don't like Uberti Cap Guns.  I don't like to work on Uberti Cap Guns.  While they do look the part, the mechanics are sorry.  Your average Uberti takes twice the work and effort to set up as a Pietta.  You start with the Barrel/Arbor fit.  There isn't any.  the hole bored in the barrel lug is always too deep and that has to be fixed before you can do any other meaningful work.  The timing is always off.  The hand and Hand Spring are a disaster waiting to happen and it is twice a difficult to install a coil spring and plunger hand spring.  The nipples are atrocious.  The trigger/bolt spring belongs under a Fiat.  The Main Spring belongs under a Dodge Ram.  Some form of Cap Guard MUST be installed, either a "Cap Guard" or a Cap Rake.  After you correct ALL those things, you have a working gun.  Usually.
All Uberti parts have to be fit.  Nothing is "drop in or drop on."

Pietta:  I like Pietta.  Take half the work of a Uberti to set up.  The Barrel/Arbor fit is 99.99% of the time correct.  99.9% of the time the bolt does not fit the cylinder slots and must be fit. Do this BEFORE you cycle the action more than once or twice.  The bolt will put burrs on the cylinder slots.  The timing is 99.9% correct.  The hand spring is serviceable but needs some fitting.  They need some form of Cap Guard or Cap Rake or they will suck caps.
I do change to coil spring and plunger on ALL my guns.  Pietta guns look good once you understand, they build everything on the 1851 frame.  ALL the action internals are interchangeable between models.  Swap barrels and cylinders between models to your hearts content to get the look you want.  Uberti does not make factory Snubbies.  Pietta does.  Change out the main spring.  Same same the Uberti.

Nipples:  Colt nipples were actually quite good and well made way back when.  Those were not CAS toys to be shot more in a month than
most were fired in a lifetime.  Colt Caps were also much different.  When fit to the nipples, they were WATERPROOF.  Samuel and his sales people use to load a revolver, drop it in water and leave it for half an hour then fire all six chambers..  That ain't gonna happen with todays nipples and caps.  For what we do, I replace all nipples with Slixshot nipples.  A huge improvement over OEM.

The reason for windage inaccuracy in original Colts was incorrectly drilled Arbors (cockeyed in the frame) and poor barrel fit to the frame at the locating pins.  Very very dificult to fix if at all.  Just as an aside, Colt 2d Gen Cap Guns were made from Uberti parts.  Not even assembled by Colt.  Nanny Nanny poo poo.

In a nut shell.  NOBODY builds a great Cap Gun out of the box.  They are well assembled DELUXE KITS.  They ALL take adjustment and fitting of some parts to work well, and ALL require replacement of some parts to function well the way we play with them.  Pietta simply take less work and then work better than a Uberti.

I could get even more technical, but, I don't want ya to fall asleep reading the Great American Novel about Cap Guns.  I shoot CAS as a Gunfighter and don't have a free hand to deal with "problems."  My guns must be dead reliable.  Pietta does a better job.  Back in the 19th century, Gunsmiths were working on Colts the same as we do now.  They used what they had.

Coffinmaker 

Fox Creek Kid

Quote from: Coffinmaker on July 24, 2015, 05:47:06 PM...Colt Caps were also much different.  When fit to the nipples, they were WATERPROOF.  Samuel and his sales people use to load a revolver, drop it in water and leave it for half an hour then fire all six chambers..  That ain't gonna happen with todays nipples and caps...


Water was drier in the 19th century.  :D  ;D

Ike Kant

Quote from: Coffinmaker on July 24, 2015, 05:47:06 PM
The trigger/bolt spring belongs under a Fiat.  

I have a beautifully restored 1969 Fiat 124 Sport Spider.  I wouldn't want it to hear anything untoward.  :)  The Fix It Again Tony reputation for these old classics is an exaggeration unless regular maintenance is not rigorously attended to.  I'm just glad Uberti and Pietta don't build cars or airplanes.  That would be a very effective form of population control.

That was a great post Coffinmaker!  You are a credit to your profession.  Just think how many more CASers would compete in the frontiersman category if they could purchase high quality reliable Colt type revolvers out of the box.   Frontiersman is the ultimate method of CAS competition.  

FCK:  That was clever.
"We should come home from afar,  from adventures and perils and discoveries every day, with new experiences and character." - Henry David Thoreau

Fox Creek Kid

Quote from: Ike Kant on July 24, 2015, 11:30:21 PM...FCK:  That was clever.


Thanks. There are a handful of people I pay serious attention to when it comes to CAS guns & Coffinmaker, Pettifogger, Flint & rifle are the top ones that have been here for years and have shown repeatedly they know where the bear went through the buckwheat.  ;) Kind of like the old E.F. Hutton commercials if you remember them:


Montana Slim

Apparently I've had better success than most with Uberti revolvers.
Below are literally the first six shots fired from each of a recent pair of 1851 Navy revolvers.
[Before firing, I did completely disassemble to debur sharp edges...otherwise, 100% as received]



The 1851s are continuing to show acceptable accuracy & fair reliability during CAS matches this year.....I've had one FTF (due to weak cap) & one AD, without safety violation (due to cap fragment under the trigger spring). That's two total misses attributed to the pistols and 4 clean matches this season so far (May-June).
In July, I adjusted the arbor fit of the 1851s using the bent-washer trick, retained by a dab of grease...but haven't fired since.

Below is a group fired from a Uberti 1860 (one of a consecutive SN pair). These originated as genuine Kit guns, rather than assembled and finished kits:


I probably have 50+ clean matches using the pair of 1860's.
BTW, all have original Uberti junk nipples, bolt/trigger springs, hands and flat springs... :D

Slim
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Montana Slim

Quote from: Coffinmaker on July 27, 2015, 10:01:05 PM
Truly ......... impressive.

Coffinmaker....Actually, you should have a smiley on that. Those were shooting with 2-hands from a seated position using a picnic tabe, which I'm too tall to use effectively...I thought they were "ok" at least, but a friend at work told me my groups essentially suck. He is a former competitor at Friendship with more than a few wins under his belt for pistol shooting.
No excuse, but was & still am working through a pretty nasty concussion & physical injuries since before I shot these groups. I needed a way to keep track of thngs and found teh digital camera workable.

For comparison, below is a group from one of my Pietta 1860s:



Don't be fooled by the larger "black"...It is a 50-yd target, but was fired at 25 yds. Was experimenting with different charge weights, this one was one of the better ones (20 gr). This revolver was used with another Pietta for a number of years and was "clean" at at leas one NCOWS National, and probably 20-30 monthly clean matches. Hard to keep track of my revolver "stable", but safe to say it is decently stocked with 1860s.
Western Reenacting                 Dark Lord of Soot
Live Action Shooting                 Pistoleer Extrordinaire
Firearms Consultant                  Gun Cleaning Specialist
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Davem

I'm with Coffinmaker on this one.  Some of the clones have very poor timing and on a couple I tested in a retail store the bolt popped up way too early and would eventually score the cylinder. On a few if you puled the hammer back very slowly the hammer would go into full cock before the bolt locked up.  I'm just "supposing" but I think the gunsmiths in Hartford probably did a better job fitting and timing.

Coffinmaker

Well ......... Slim,

I my area, we had a shooter who shot nothing but "clean" matches, three times a month, for four or five seasons.  Then he received a "P" that eliminated a "clean" match and ended his string.  I don't think I ever saw him shoot a stage in under 105 seconds.

Coffinmaker

Fox Creek Kid

The older pre-CNC Ubertis has better part fitment, but seemed ot be more prone to shooting off to a side (as well as high). The newer ones are made better, but parts fitment is poorer in general IMO. As well, the newer ones shoot high (as do almost all) but have better windage. I think that is due to CNC & perhaps even lasers(?).

Lefty Dude

If the Arbor to frame fit is poor, the piece will shoot high. Meaning, the Arbor is short and not seating in the frame well to the bottom.
A very severe Uberti problem that exists with most Uberti BP C&B Colt type revolvers.
My pietta 51's & 60's shoot POI at 25 yards.

Fox Creek Kid

Quote from: Lefty Dude on July 29, 2015, 12:53:34 AM...My pietta 51's & 60's shoot POI at 25 yards.


What the Hell are you shooting at 25 yds. with these? A smelly outlaw?  :o   :D  ;)

Lefty Dude


Montana Slim

I've not seen a severe difference in point of aim / impact with the Uberti vs. the Pietta.

I have seen a slight difference in group sizes between the two manufacturers, and between models. There are a few prime factors which will be major factors in the results and others with less impact, so to speak. I do have photos similar to those posted for most of my C&B pistols. I like to be able to review if I've made mechanical changes (muzzle, forcing cone, etc) and did I see improvement, how much.....was it real or just luck. I do this somewhat seriously but won't turn my "fun" into mt work.

If anyone has similar photos to post, I'd certainly take a look. I'm pretty good at spotting trends.

Slim
Western Reenacting                 Dark Lord of Soot
Live Action Shooting                 Pistoleer Extrordinaire
Firearms Consultant                  Gun Cleaning Specialist
NCOWS Life Member                 NRA Life Member

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