Firing rifle salute.

[pony express]

I thought it best to start a new thread, instead of "drifting" Stu's thread any more. My question-what are the procedures for firing a three volley salute with the trapdoor, concerning proper movements, muzzle control, etc? Perhaps Upton's manual had the answer, but I don't have one. I have seen salutes fired with muskets(load at will, and just wait to fire the next time when all are ready) and with semi-autos, but never with bolt guns or single shots.

[Pitspitr]

Yes, Upton's does include the full funeral regulations as well as the firing party reg.s.  

When I worked at Fort Hartsuff one of my job titles was the Coordinator for Living History and Volunteers. In that capacity I was responsible for teaching and drilling our volunteers in the manual of arms. We also did several funerals. A couple were reenactments, but one was for one of our former living history 1st Sgt. who was a real life retired Gunnery Sgt in the Marine Corp. He was pi$$ed off at the local Legion Club and requested that the fort provide the military honors for his funeral.  So I'm pretty familiar with the firing salute and funeral regulations but will need to refresh them in my mind prior to the GM. I'm pretty confident I can teach everybody in the time we have that weekend.

I also helped produce an instructional video from the Upton's tactics and converted much of its contents to a electronic version.  I'm trying to find out if I can get access to the video and text. If so I should be able to share the text across the web.

I know you're a real life veteran. Have you ever learned Rest on Arms or Reverse Arms?
Sometimes Real life veterans have a harder time learning the old drill than someone who was never in the service. In this case we'll keep it simple and use the modern way of doing the facings (right, left, and about)

[Pitspitr]

well the bad news is that it looks as though the fort's computer crashed and they lost the electronic version of Upton's Infantry Tactics that I helped produce.

The good news is that it is now available through Google Books.
https://play.google.com/books/reader?printsec=frontcover&output=reader&id=DB9IAAAAIAAJ&pg=GBS.PP1

For funeral honors see section 362 on page 125

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[PJ Hardtack]

I was a Canadian Regular for 10 years and a Reservist for 2. The only time I ever saw troops trained on the "Rest on your arms - Reverse!" drill was shortly before doing a stint for a war memorial ceremony.

If you want to see one of the best cartoon statements around such duty, google "Cpl. Cirillo cartoon". He was murdered while performing sentry duty at our national war memorial in Ottawa. The killer went on to invade the Centre Block of Parliament where he was engaged by the Sgt. At Arms, shot and killed.

I'd post it if I knew how. It shows one of the WW1 figures from our monument cradling Cpl. Cirillo in his arms while another is reaching down to help bring him up to join the others.

Very moving and it brought tears to my eyes yet again ..... :>(

The artist was honoured for it and he donated the original to Cpl. Cirillo's family.

[pony express]

I saw that cartoon posted on another forum, Surplusrifle, I think. I had the same reaction to it you did.

As far as Manual of Arms, my service was .....gulp......35 years ago. I think what we learned was pretty limitedjust the standard movements for marching and standing formation. I'm sure things are WAAAAYYYY different using a full length infantry rifle than an M-16. My concern with the Trapdoor involves loading it, while in formation. When I'm shooting, I always lower the muzzle, so the cartridge won't slip back out of the chamber far enough that the breechblock won't close on it. Seems like loading a round while at port arms would be difficult.

[Drydock]

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/23/ottawa-shooting-cartoon-war-memorial-chronicle-herald_n_6035108.html


That may be one of the finest pieces of its genre I have ever seen.

[pony express]

Computer's working exceptionally slow tonight....but I managed to read some of the relevant sections in the online Upton's. (Wish it was an illustrated book) Lot's more commands and positions than what I've used. Don't think Rest on Arms would work real well with a short M-16, and Reverse Arms...??Still not sure I understand that one from reading. Is it used when marching? I have seen Carry Arms used with CW Muskets, but never did it with modern rifles. One thing it cleared up for me, is that the actual loading is not done to a cadence.

Edit: Might help to read from the beginning....I was trying to figure out the position for "Load" and it seemed very unstable to stand there in the first motion of "about face", until I read the beginning and found that the "about face" I know was only done by officers at that time, enlisted men did a very different version.......

[Pitspitr]

I told you the facings were a lot different And most of the manual of arms wouldn't work with an M-16 or even a trapdoor carbine. I'm sure hoping we can get enough rifles.

The older edition of Upton's does have illustrations of the positions, but it's still really difficult to visualize the movements. I spent a week at a living history encampment a couple of times to be able to learn some of them. When we made the video I had just came back from one. So far we haven't found a copy of it but there has to be one some place.

(edit: I just realized; I think I have it on the HD of my DVD burner I can't wait to get home and check)

[Gripmaker]

Please include any portions for which the presiding chaplain is responsible. I have done many (way too many) funerals but none were military except  as Color Guard NCOIC while in service and I don't remember chaplain's part in those. Way too many years have passed.

LTC Montgomery Little, Senior Chaplain,  GAF

[PJ Hardtack]

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/23/ottawa-shooting-cartoon-war-memorial-chronicle-herald_n_6035108.html
That may be one of the finest pieces of its genre I have ever seen.

Thanks, Drydock! Much appreciated.

Ranks up there with the ones post the Charlie Hebdo attacks. Like the one depicting someone putting a pencil into the muzzle of an AK 47 pointed at him.

"The pen is not mightier than the sword, but a pen protected by a sword is."

[PJ Hardtack]

I commanded a firing party of ACW re-enactors who fired a salute at the funeral for the wife of one of us.

It was a mixed party of Royal Engineers, Confederates and Union soldiers. We were all armed with either two or three band Enfields.

After drilling them prior to the event, I gave up, simply telling them to "Rest on your arms - Reverse!" as best they could. It was well received and if not strictly as per anyone's Manual Of Arms, no one noticed or cared.

[Pitspitr]

I DO have the video version of the school of the soldier on my DVD Burner. I don't think I can put it on the web but folks who will be helping with the funeral next summer can let me know and I can send them a DVD

[pony express]

That's perfect, I try to not do to much online video, since I'm on satellite, and they limit the data you can use every month.

Most seems to get used up by the wife's facebook.....

[Gripmaker]

Gen'l Pitsptr,  I should like very much to have a copy of said DVD. Please apprise me of the cost of DVD and shipping.

LTC Montgomery Little, Senior Chaplain, GAF

[Guns Garrett]

After drilling them prior to the event, I gave up, simply telling them to "Rest on your arms - Reverse!" as best they could. It was well received and if not strictly as per anyone's Manual Of Arms, no one noticed or cared.

With the Marine Corps League and American Legion, I have been tasked with many instances of NCOIC ("Sword Waver") of either the firing squad at funerals, and color guards at parades.  Many of the AL Color Guards include members of the Sons of American Legion (SAL), and aren't veterans.  My advice to them, when it came to doing facing movements an rifle drill movements was "90% of the spectators watching don't know how to do it either, so if you mess up, don't panic".

Our firing details either used M1s or M1903s, so we didnt have to load single rounds.  With M1903, we would work the bolt at the command "Ready", given for all three volleys.  With the M1, we only gave the command "Ready" to initially bring the rifle to the shoulder, then "Aim, Fire" for all three volleys.

[pony express]

Somewhere in all my stuff I have one of the Ft Hartsuf videos, but I don't remember if it had any drill in it, I do remember Jerry demonstrating the items of the uniform.

[Pitspitr]

Somewhere in all my stuff I have one of the Ft Hartsuf videos, but I don't remember if it had any drill in it, I do remember Jerry demonstrating the items of the uniform.

What you have is the video for sale in the gift shop. What I'm talking about was a training video we produced for our volunteers. It never got a nice cover or label or anything. we just copied them and handed them out to new guys.

[PJ Hardtack]

Our firing details either used M1s or M1903s, so we didnt have to load single rounds.  With M1903, we would work the bolt at the command "Ready", given for all three volleys.  With the M1, we only gave the command "Ready" to initially bring the rifle to the shoulder, then "Aim, Fire" for all three volleys.

Did you operate the M1 manually?

[Guns Garrett]

Did you operate the M1 manually?

No the M1s were ported to only fire blanks.  They would cycle just fine.  We had clips made especially for three rounds, and did NOT eject after the last round (no "ping")

[PJ Hardtack]

Interesting .... so the action did not lock back after the last round? That must be one hell of a blank round to operate a Garand! I didn't think they would function with a blank.

I've seen videos of US Honour Guard firing M14's. They had to operate the rifle manually after each shot.

No 'Ping' clip ejection? C'est dommage. That's unique to the Garand, it's 'signature'.

I've got lots of M1 clips, to include two 5 rd clips just in case I meet an over zealous Conservation Officer who doesn't know that it's legal in our gun-paranoid country.