Author Topic: Frontier Military Action Shooting????  (Read 22341 times)

Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2005, 10:00:52 AM »
Griz,

That is a trait that both of us share.
Major Matt Lewis
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Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2005, 10:58:03 AM »
At the Muster was the first time I had shot a Krag or a Trapdoor.

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Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2005, 01:37:59 PM »
How did you like the experience?
Major Matt Lewis
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Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2005, 01:40:50 PM »
How did you like the experience?
It was great! Made me want to go buy one of each.

Slim
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2005, 03:23:57 PM »
Aaahhhh .... but for the ne plus ultra of mid-Victorian-era rifle shooting experiences, you really need to touch off a few from a .577/.450 Martini-Henry!   :o .....  :-\ .....  ;D



Perhaps, if things go well, I can round up enough brass to have extra cartridges loaded for next year's Muster.  (Mind you at US$5.00-$8.00 per casing ...  Could be I'd have to bring my dies and a "field loading station ... ::) )
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #45 on: Today at 04:52:02 PM »

Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2005, 03:30:40 PM »
That'd be kewl.  ;D

Slim
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Offline Ol Gabe

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2005, 05:57:01 PM »
RJR, Kind Sir,
'IF', mind you 'IF', enough brass could be located down here, do you have a portable reloading kit to do same? if powder &  primers were 'donated' or 'sponsored', what type would you prefer for the loads, etc.? Enquiring 'Muster Sponsor Minds' would like to know!
Best regards and please check your other posts for my e-pics!
'Ol Gabe

Offline Drydock

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2005, 06:00:46 PM »
I'll have Milspec BP Trapdoor carbine loads for anyone want to touch a few off.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2005, 06:56:28 PM »
That'd be kewl.  ;D

Slim:
Just to put things into perspective (partly since you mention that was your first time shooting a trapdoor) here is a wee comparison shot depicting the two British Empire military rifle cartridges (albeit these are in modern drawn brass cases, rather that the original composite coiled-brass cases) that were in use contemporaneously with the U.S. .50-70 and .45-70 Govt. cartridges:

Left: Snider-Enfield .577 (circa 1866 to 1873 as the primary British round - and for much longer in Canada, which kept the S-E as its primary longarm until adoption of the .303 Magazine Lee-Enfield rifle in 1896.)
Center: U.S. .45-70 Govt.
Right: Martini-Henry .577/.450 - so-called because it used essentially the same base as the .577 round, lengthened and necked down to .450 cal. - service load 85 gr. "R.F.G.2" (Rifle, Fine Grain, No. 2) powder, 480 gr. bullet 12:1 lead:tin.

'Ol Gabe:

Mmmmm ... for "full meal deal" field loading, I have a setup using an RCBS single-stage press, though I'd need a sturdy bench to clamp/bolt it down onto (or at least a full-size Black & Decker "Workmate" or the like to clamp it into.)  Alternatively, I can do basic "table-top reloading, though with that method the cases don't get resized nor the bullets crimped into the case necks, so some problems can start to develop, especially after two or three reloadings  ....
The powder which I am currently using is Hodgdon Triple 7 (can't remember which granulation at present, though I think it was 2F.)  However, full "mil-spec" loads would be best loaded with good black powder, I suppose.  I am currently using Federal Large Rifle primers, IIRC (am responding to this from my office, so don't have access to my loadingstuff ...)

Tell me more ....   ;)

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Drydock

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2005, 08:56:14 PM »
Thats a nice idea Jack.  Spend the first day with the Trapdoor carbine (250 grain bullet, 1/2" wad, 40 grains FFG) and my 7.5" Colt, BP loaded, 1870s uniforms.  The next day use the Krag, the 5.5" Colt, SAW uniforms.  Great fun!  I think you'ld have to figure out how to download the Snider, you'ld have the devil of a time downloading that big bottleneck Martini round!  I suspect some fiber wads would do the trick on the Snider.  www.circlefly.com
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #50 on: Today at 04:52:02 PM »

Offline Drydock

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2005, 09:53:49 PM »
After thinking about this some more, I might, just might like to add one additional rule:  repeaters should have double the round count of single shots.  IE idealy this would mean single shots fire one round per rifle target, with repeaters double tapping each rifle target.  This has a basis in history, in that during the Phillipines campaign, pickets would often have both a krag and a Trapdoor, in that if the Krag failed to stop a Moro, the large slow single shot surely would!  (Just don't miss!)

I would like this, as it would allow the class to be inclusive of all these weapons, as opposed to having to divide them up,  SS vs. repeaters.  Of course, this would also allow me to shoot all my guns in one class! ;D
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2005, 11:27:41 PM »
Sgt. D, you make a very good point - especially so that a competitor could "mix'n'match" firearms at the same shoot - and such a rule would hopefully prevent the Class from turning into an "arms race" worse than anything SASS has experienced!   ("Gotta get myself the the best, quickest repeating rifle I can manage to justify within the allowed timeframe!")   

Mind you, I suppose that it may be impossible to completely eliminate all elements of such competitiveness/gamesmanship.  I guess (as Maj. Matt intimated) creation of such a shooting class will definitely require considerable thinking out of the various implications ....  I know where you are coming from with your hope of avoiding a subdivision of the class into single shot and repeater, but (to play the Devil's Advocate a bit, here) perhaps such a subdivision would be unavoidable, when all considerations are taken into account ....

On the "downloading issue" -   As you say, the Snider round is relatively simple to load down, using wads or the like.  Another method which has been used to reduce effective case capacity is inserting a thickish tube/collar (cardboard or whatever) inside the case body, coming up to the point that the bullet base is seated to.  This method can also work with the M-H cartridge, though it is a bit more "fiddly" to accomplish.

Actually, a very good method of downloading these big-bore BP cartridges has been developed, which works very effectively in the bottlenecks such as the .577/.450 while avoiding the danger of a "plug" forming in the neck if an inert filler like Cream of Wheat is used.  That is to mix equal volumes of black powder (or substitute powder being used) with your Cream of Wheat (or whatever), and use that as a filler above even much-reduced powder charges in the base of the cartridge.  The filler is then not "inert", but rather the propellant mixed with it combusts along with the main powder charge, preventing the filler from compacting ....   One does have to factor into one's charge calculations the amount of powder mixed with the filler, however.  There has been a lot of discussion about this method, and the success achieved with it, over the past few years on the "British Militaria Forums" - where a bunch of Snider- and Martini-shooting maniacs like me hang out ... http://p223.ezboard.com/bbritishmilitariaforums   
 
(Matter of fact, the Martini-Henry rounds I shot in the Long-Range Big Bore Single Shot rifle event at Muster this year were somewhat reduced loads using this method - total propellant equivalent of about 60 grns of powder, rather than the full service load of 85 grns.)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Grizzle Bear

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2005, 07:37:44 AM »
Sgt. Drydock:

For the Kansas Vigilance Committee's Two-Gun Shoot, we allow single-shots along with the repeaters.  We have experimented with this and found that repeaters have a 3 to 1 advantage in speed, at least at the ranges we shoot.  So our usual procedure is to have three rifle targets, so those using repeaters sweep them 3 times, and those using a single-shot sweep them once.  This evens things out, and is easier than having two different classes.

Grizzle Bear

 
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Offline Ol Gabe

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2005, 09:27:01 AM »
RJR, Sgt. Drydock, All,
If this concept reaches fruition, I would be happy to help sponsor some supplies for same reloads and I'm sure we can isolate a bench/table at the General Store where I'll have some things. We'll work it out if all goes as you envision, I'm sure M.M. is cogitating on all the concepts posted above and will make his decision on safety and all other considerations, etc.
Best regards and good reloading!
'Ol Gabe

Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2005, 10:52:59 AM »
Thanks fer the cartridge comparisons, Rattlesnake Jack.

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Offline Drydock

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2005, 04:43:16 PM »
Yep, but I'll be thats lever actions vs. single shots.  My guess in a "Battle Rifle" Class it would be bolts vs. single shots, and the bolts are slower than levers.  Ennyways, thinking about it, I think I'd just divide them by NCOWs normal powder/style split.  That would pretty much put the SSs and the Spencers together, with the Bolts in the Smokeless side of the house.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline hawk167

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2005, 09:58:07 AM »
Frontier ARMY Military Action Shooting?

What about us 'ole Leathernecks out here?

Yeah....I know........We're the targets!

Great idea!

Offline Major Matt Lewis

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2005, 10:27:39 AM »
Haek,

You will find us Gyrenes well represented here.  That is why there is no Army in the title.
Major Matt Lewis
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Offline Grapeshot

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2005, 03:53:10 PM »
I Like This!  If you need to vote then I vote a resounding YES!

Are Cannon allowed?
Listen!  Do you hear that?  The roar of Cannons and the screams of the dying.  Ahh!  Music to my ears.

Offline ColonelFlashman

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Re: Frontier Military Action Shooting????
« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2005, 07:09:15 PM »

Huzzah!
Colonel Sir Harry Paget Flashman VC KCB KCIE USMH;
Colonel 17th Lancers Staff Political Officer;
Staff Corp Commander & D.o.P. Command Staff
WartHog, Pistolero & Mounted Shootist
 :uk:  :usa:  :canada:  :dixie:  :ausie:

 

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