Author Topic: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield  (Read 24070 times)

Offline Guns Garrett

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2014, 09:47:50 PM »
Mk 1 Martini-Henry carbine,  .577-450 loads; 75 gr FFG, 485 gr slug ("after" photo: after about 80 rounds):
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2014, 01:41:03 AM »
The original standard "service loads" - 480 grain bullets and around 80 grains black powder for both Snider-Enfield and Martini-Henry - have pretty stout recoil, as clearly evidenced by Guns' photos .... However, he was effectively shooting nearly a full rifle load in a M-H cavalry carbine .... which even the War Department wouldn't let its soldiers do .... they delayed issuance of such carbines until a reduced carbine load was adopted.

As Sir Charles indicates, lighter loads will significantly reduce the recoil, and  still be effective for most GAF shooting (i.e. except perhaps for any "long range" shots.)  I have not yet tried any round ball loads, but many people report excellent results with such loads in Sniders .... especially full-length 3-band rifles, which have very "slow twist" 1:78  rifling.  However,  I tam of the view that a ball iof only 58 caliber range or so is too small for best accuracy, since the progressive depth Enfield rifling grooves (.013"deep at the breech, .005" at the muzzle) result in an effective average major bore diameter of over .590".  Accordingly, most folks reporting consistently good accuracy with round ball loads use at least a .590" diameter ball, or even .600" ..... Chamber dimensions on these old girls vary somewhat, and that may determing how big a ball you can use and still have your cartridges chamber fully. 

A .600" round ball  will only weigh about 325 grains, and a reduced powder charge of perhaps 60 grains black powder should produce a pretty mild recoil. 

In a "straightwall" case like the .577 Snider. something as simple as cream of wheat or cornmeal can be used as a filler between the reduced powder charge and the projectile .... however, you need a fairly good quantity of a suitable black powder lubricant in the load somewhere, to keep the fouling soft.  I use a "grease cookie" under the bullet - i.e. a wad of home-made soft lube (50/50 mix of olive oil and beeswax melted together) about 1/4" thick, sandwiched between cards punched out of milk cartons - but many people using round ball loads seat the ball well into the case mouth and then fill the top level with their lube .... rather like lubing the chambers of a cap and ball revolver.
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Lord Eoin MacKenzie

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2014, 02:50:12 PM »
Thanks for the Information, Gentlemen.

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2014, 07:18:00 PM »
I have a custom LEE mould I obtained from Kerry Jenkinson.  Its .592 RN bevel base. I can't recall the weight but will post it here.

Grant. I'll bet a .60 roundball could be simply pressed on top of the case mouth.

P.S: The .592 Jenkinson-LEE mould drops bullets in excess of 500 grains, the limit of my measure. Kerry had them made for Snider Match shooters who needed accuracy out to 300 yards.
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2014, 08:21:53 PM »
Doesn't sound like quite the same bullet perhaps, but I have a double-cavity Lee mould of a Jenkinson-designed bullet .... I gather he had Lee make a batch of these moulds some years ago.  The hand-written info on the end of the Lee box says it is a .590, nominal weight 450 gr.   Here is a "scanner plonk" of the cavities -



This stubby little bullet (referred to by some as a "ball-ette") works very well for me.
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #25 on: Today at 05:20:56 PM »

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2014, 08:29:37 PM »
I also have a Lee .600 round ball mould around here somewhere, although I haven't cast any let alone tried them in any Sniders. 

The mould actually came with this lovely .62 cal. Hawken-style rifle I acquired a few years ago for a price I couldn't refuse. 

(It was too big for the chap who had it, but goes well with my rather sizable frame  ....)

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Gabriel Law

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2014, 12:00:38 AM »
Can you advise where Terry Kirkpatrick resides?  I have called him two days running during the day time, and left messages, but no answers yet.  I'd like to call him in the evening if I could learn what time zone he's in...don't want to get him out of bed!!

Great advice all around on shooting the Snider.  I'm not at that stage yet...want to restore it first.  I also have to acquire brass and dies.  I have a .590", .595", .600" and .610" round ball mould, and was given some minies in .58 cal to try.  But first the work.

A friend dropped over with a coffee can full of old parts today, and among the parts there's a rear band for the rifle, but mine has one already, in much better condition.  His thoughtfulness was much appreciated though.  There was nothing that I needed for the Snider...bummer!

Offline Blair

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2014, 09:18:58 AM »
Gabriel,

Terry Kirkpatrick lives in Clarksville, VA.
You might try this phone # 434-374-0756
Also try vagunparts@verizon.net  (I don't know if this will work)

Type this phone # into your favorite search and see what comes up
My best,
Blair
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But in times of peace and all things right,
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2014, 12:22:47 PM »
Keep in mind in your search fo rparts that what you need will be essentially the same as the same parts from an original Pattern 1856 Enfield Rifle Musket, which is what the Mark I and II Snider short rifles were converted from .... and the Mark III's, although new-made rather than converted, used the same parts - i.e. they either used up existin parts or made them to the same specs.  That should broaden your search parameters somewhat.

If unsuccessful in locating parts on this side of the Atlantic, you may wish to contact Peter Dyson & Sons in the UK .... one of the best sources of both original and reproduction parts for old British guns.  Although the parts are well illustrated and described on their website, my searches don't seem to come up with anything indicating which specific model of rifle their barrel bands fit, for example.  You could undoubtedly tell them what you are restoring and they could make sure you get the correct parts.

Here is a page of parts they offer for Enfield rifle muskets -
- https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=cap%20forend&PN=ENFIELD_RIFLE_parts.html#aFec_20148_20s
The parts listed there appear to be mostly new-made .... including the cast steel (as opposed to brass) fore-end cap you need for your short rifle (Fec 148 s) which is rough cast and would need cleaning, fitting and polishing.  Note that they also offer new-made rough cast rear, middle and front barrel bands .... but describing them that way implies to me that they fit the 3-band long rifle.  However, perhaps they also fit the short rifle, or they may have different bands for it - you'd have to ask.  If you went this route you'd also need the band screw and sling swivel ....

Parts for the modern-made Italian reproductions of Enfield Rifle Muskets should also work.  One problem is that I don't believe anyone has ever made a reproduction iron-mounted P'56 short rifle, so reproduction nose-caps may only be available in brass. If all else failed, I suppose you could use one of those, darkened with brass black.
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2014, 09:52:58 AM »






That is a very nice rifle!

It will be great to see this get restored.  Outstanding job finding that one Sir!







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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #30 on: Today at 05:20:56 PM »

Offline Gabriel Law

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2014, 12:10:08 PM »
I made inquiries with Dyson in England.  I listed the parts I thought would work, describing the rifle I have, and they replied that they could not supply any of the parts.  So i asked if it was a shipping issue or what?  They returned my mail saying they didn't have the parts in stock anymore.  Frustrating.
I'll try Terry Kirkpatrick right now.  Thanks for persevering guys.

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2014, 03:47:59 PM »


There is usually a good selection of Enfield musket/Snider parts on Ebay, but strangely, this is all I see now.


The nose cap is brass so a dug one will work fine. I had one that came from a wreck off the coast and it cleaned up like new. These are riveted with brass pins to the wood and a little tricky to install.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131294191456?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


The band here isn't in the best condition, but there will be more if you watch for them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301312265383?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649



Best of luck getting this rifle restored.



Offline Gabriel Law

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2014, 10:35:12 PM »
I appreciate those links Charles.  I agree that they are not in great condition...I'd like to hold out for something closer to the patina on the rifle.  But the truth is, this inspired me to register on EBAY, so I'll watch for the parts to come up again.  I have no idea how to go about it...I assume you just type in a search for Enfield barrel bands...?

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2014, 09:09:14 AM »
Yes Sir, just type in "Enfield musket barrel bands", "Snider barrel bands", "musket barrel bands" etc.  or if you are good at searching through mountains of pictures just search "musket parts", "gun parts",  "civil war gun parts"-whatever these could be described as.












Offline Blair

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2014, 04:39:21 PM »
Gabriel,

My suggestion is to stay with the parts that fit your original interchangeable firearm.
Leave the rest of the BS, "British Stuff" alone.
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
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God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
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Offline Gabriel Law

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2014, 09:24:17 PM »
Good advice.  I intend to hold out for the parts I want and need.  Eventually, they should turn up.  It's not as if I'm looking for the Holy Grail.

Offline Gabriel Law

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2014, 10:14:53 AM »
Thanks to Rattlesnake Jack, I have found Lodgewood Mfg. and have ordered the parts I need to recreate the missing forearm for my rifle.  Since the stuff is coming from across the pond, the shipping was prohibitively expensive for the correct ramrod, so RJ has found me a source here in Canada.  Finally, this is coming together.  Thanks to everyone for providing information and encouragement.  I'll post pictures of the re-build as it unfolds.

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2014, 10:35:56 AM »
So, Gabe,
Any chance you can bring it to Nebraska and shoot it with us next June?
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
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Grand Army of the Frontier
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2014, 11:36:31 AM »
Just a wee correction .... although we were looking at stuff from Lodgewood, I think GL ordered the necessary metal parts (except rod, as he mentions) from E.J. Blackley & Son in the UK: http://www.blackleyandson.com/index.html

This firm has its own foundry and machining facility to produce parts, and looks like an excellent source for some hitherto difficult-to-locate parts for various British military and sporting firearms.  In particular, it is the only place in the world that I am aware of where one can get the correct iron/steel fore-end cap for a P'56 Enfield Short Rifle (2-band) or the Snider-Enfield equivalent, as opposed to the brass ones used on the Long Rifle (3-band) and ALL reproduction Enfields from that era.  What's more, they have produced these with War Department inspection/acceptance markings!

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Parts to restore a Snider/Enfield
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2014, 12:22:47 PM »
So do they put their own mark on them somewhere so that they don't get passed off as an original someday?
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
(Bvt.)Brigadier General Commanding,
Grand Army of the Frontier
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