Author Topic: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88  (Read 12357 times)

Offline Drydock

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1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« on: July 18, 2014, 07:34:47 pm »
Hey Ned, you might be interested in this: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?361292-Marlins-In-China-1900

Ignore the title and read.  I learned something.  An interesting possibilities for those interested in the China Relief Expidition.   And a great example of the "battlefield pickup"!
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline pony express

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2014, 08:37:56 pm »
Yup, I read that a couple of weeks before the Muster, that's where I learned of it. If ya wanna be a Marine and can't afford a Lee-Navy, that's a way you can do it!

Offline Niederlander

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2014, 05:14:59 pm »
Fascinating!  That would certainly be a way to NOT need a Lee Navy!  Makes you wonder how they explained "losing" those rifles!
"There go those Nebraskans, and all hell couldn't stop them!"

Offline pony express

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2014, 10:19:31 pm »
Pesky Chinese street kids must have stole them.....

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2014, 10:02:15 pm »
When I first learned of the M1895 Navy, I was shocked to learn the Marines were NOT issued the Krag during the Spanish American war.

Now 40 years later I learn that it is documented that they picked up M1888 Commission rifles and actually brought them back aboard ship-and appear to be using them -in a ceremony? -absolutely fascinating.

From what I have been told of the M1895 Lee, the defect was in the extractor which was prone to break during rough manipulation of the bolt. When it broke, the bolt would come out of the receiver when the action was operated!

Of course it is very possible some may have been court martialed for "losing" the Lees. Marines in WW1 suffered that fate for cutting their mid-calf wool overcoats into jackets due to the lower material becoming caked with pounds of French mud in the trenches!

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Offline pony express

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2014, 10:21:54 pm »
Maybe they had wagons or other means of hauling the Lee rifles when they picked up the GEW88s, I'm sure when they got the rifles, they must have packed away a considerable amount of ammo too, since re-supply would be a problem.

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2014, 12:25:54 pm »
Very interesting!  I have an '88/14 Commission rifle, which I hope would do.

Not for USMC or USN, but for the "Scandinavian Corps" serving in the Boer forces in the early days of the Anglo-Boer War. They were issued '88s, probably loaners from the German African colonies.

http://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/boer-units/1955-scandinavian-corps

NOTE: Navigate through this site for very good info on the south African war.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 04:04:22 pm by Sir Charles deMouton-Black »
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
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Offline River City John

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2014, 02:23:48 pm »
The Scandinavian Korps is the unit I am basing my Boer impression upon. The one picture that appears with that article depicts them as fairly uniform in appearance. The long arms they seem to have, though, seem more the length of the carbine or short rifle.


RCJ
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Offline pony express

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2014, 03:22:48 pm »
Very interesting!  I have an '88/13 Commission rifle, which I hope would do.

An 88/13? I have an 88/05, and have heard of, but never seen except in pictures, the 88/14, but never an 88/13.

As far as I know for our game, any GEW 88 would be acceptable, except the later Turk conversions, where they discarded the barrel jacket and put it in a GEW98 looking stock.

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2014, 04:06:28 pm »
I guess mine is the 88/14. I have corrected my post.  Its the one with the more makeshift conversion to a '98 clip. the 88/05 was done with more care, I believe.

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/repeating-rifle/de/gew_-e.html

The Chinese version of the '88, called the "Hanyang" rifle omitted the barrel jacket.  This is likely the rifle that was picked up in this campaign.

P.S. Manufacture began in 1895. An improvement in 1904 omitted the barrel jacket.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 10:45:35 pm by Sir Charles deMouton-Black »
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2014, 08:16:25 pm »
Maybe they had wagons or other means of hauling the Lee rifles when they picked up the GEW88s, I'm sure when they got the rifles, they must have packed away a considerable amount of ammo too, since re-supply would be a problem.

Might have been some of those wagons made to be pulled by humans too I bet.




The Scandinavian Korps is the unit I am basing my Boer impression upon. The one picture that appears with that article depicts them as fairly uniform in appearance. The long arms they seem to have, though, seem more the length of the carbine or short rifle.


RCJ


I always wondered where this General Smuts got his Krag.  I knew nothing of the Scandinavian's in the Boer War!

Great stuff!

http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=print;num=1330648844


Offline pony express

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2014, 09:39:55 pm »
Sir Charles: I believe the Hanyangs were made later, post 1900. What I have read was, the GEW 88s in China at that time were sold to them by the European makers. Later the machinery for making them was also sold to China. There they made and used them up through WWII.

From what I have read, surviving 88/14s are pretty rare. Mine is the more common type, 88/05 with some Turk parts and Turk marked sights, but still in original configuration otherwise, straight grip stock and barrel jacket.

Charles I., was the General's Krag a US? It appears to be a sporterised one. Could have been one of the European ones?

Offline Drydock

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2014, 10:04:48 pm »
Its Norwegian.   A 6.5x55 infantry "Lang Krag". (Long)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 10:07:08 pm by Drydock »
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2014, 10:26:07 pm »
The Scandinavian Korps is the unit I am basing my Boer impression upon. The one picture that appears with that article depicts them as fairly uniform in appearance. The long arms they seem to have, though, seem more the length of the carbine or short rifle.
RCJ
There was an '88 carbine, but the article states rifles, which is normal for mounted infantry. Could it be forshortening due to camera angle? The slouch hat is pinned up on the right and clips are carried in a bandoleer. Do you have an idea of a pattern for the bandoleer?

here is an article on the whole battle of Magersfontain;

http://dingeengoete.blogspot.ca/2013/12/this-day-in-history-dec-11-1899-battle.html
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline River City John

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2014, 11:25:22 pm »
http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1903/components/1903_bandoliers.html

The above link gives clear evidence that the British manufacturer Martins provided bandoliers to both sides during the Second Boer War.
Although called the 1902 pattern, it was around earlier. Article notes that the Boer bandoliers were constructed to accommodate stripper clips of ammo.

I plan to use a 1902 bandolier, and call it close enough.

RCJ



Here's a screenshot, courtesy of wickipedia, of another bandolier associated with the Swedish Mauser.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 11:42:28 pm by River City John »
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
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Offline sail32

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2014, 11:30:39 am »
The Gew-88 were probably German surplus sold to the Chinese.

The" Arms of the World, 1911": The fabulous ALFA catalogue of arms and the outdoors.

http://www.amazon.com/Arms-World-1911-fabulous-catalogue/dp/0695803336

The catalogue lists new and surplus weapons available from Germany.

An excellent reference book.

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2014, 11:37:32 am »
RCJ; Thanks for the link.  As it happens, I have one of the 90 round bandoleers marked  HUGH CARSON CoLtd OTTAWA 1929.  it has the "C" broad arrow (indicating Canadian service) and "37 RCA" attributing it to 37 Battery or field regiment (Not sure which?), Royal Canadian Artillery.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 01:30:08 pm by Sir Charles deMouton-Black »
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2014, 09:25:42 pm »
What a great bunch of knowledge coming forth here. Now I'll need to try and find an M1888 Commission rifle.

I read years ago that a lot of them blossomed the barrels to ribbons so they always kind of scared me. I'd keep the ammo at around the 30-30 level and I guess I'd be OK.

Anyone shoot these with full powered loads?


Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2014, 10:49:21 pm »
Here is some more on the '88 copy known as the Hanyang rifle; 

http://candrsenal.com/rifle-chinese-hanyang-type-88/

Manufacture began in 1895. The barrel shroud was dropped after 1904
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline pony express

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2014, 06:18:57 am »
Sir Charles, thanks for that info! I didn't know they started production that early. So the ones the Marines "liberated" could have been Hanyangs.

Charles Issac: While I haven't ever shot mine with any Full power loads, I'm pretty sure the Turks who had it before me just used whatever 8mm was available. From what I have read, US commercial 8mm is loaded with the GEW88 in mind. Lot of variation in groove diameters, depending on who made the barrel and when. Lots of information on the evolution of them is available on Gunboards, but basically the Germans solved the barrel splitting problems early on by deepening the rifling grooves, and using a heavier barrel for replacements and later production.

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2014, 07:55:00 am »
Thanks for the info Pony Express. I like to experience these old shooters as they were used by our ancestors. I would like to find one that is unmodified and uses the Mannlicher clips then make up some round nose 8x57 J for it.

I have various types of 8mm and the Turk stuff I have is some hot loaded cupronickle jacketed stuff and I fire it out of a Czech slave labor built Kar 98.

I sent that pic of the Marines with the M1888s to a friend of mine that was in the Marines and owns a very nice Turked M1888. He will be very surprised!

 

Offline Ol Gabe

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2014, 09:45:28 am »
Just curious...
Is the picture above of Gen. Smuts leaning on his Krag a reverse/mirror image? It appears that the bolt/receiver are on the left side of the stock instead of the standard issue right side. I freely admit I'm not familiar with old Krags so may be completely wrong but am interested in verification from a historical pictorial aspect, as in did they make left side actions?
Best regards and keep on researching!
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Offline Niederlander

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2014, 10:47:13 am »
No sir, that's the left side plate.  (It's basically the left side of the magazine.)  The depression behind it is probably to make using the magazine cut-off easier to get at.  (I'm assuming the Norwegian Krag HAD a cut-off.)
"There go those Nebraskans, and all hell couldn't stop them!"

Offline sail32

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2014, 11:54:56 am »
The Norwegian Krag has a magazine cut off, scroll down on this link to see a picture showing the cut off and the safety.

http://www.cruffler.com/historic-october01.html

also; http://norskevaapen.no/?p=595

The British forces issued two types of charger bandoleers, one for men and one for horses.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 10:55:25 am by sail32 »

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 1900. China, Marines and the GEW 88
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2014, 04:11:33 pm »
Note that South Africa used some rejected Steyr manufactured Krags.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”