Author Topic: .44-40 & IMR 4227  (Read 8349 times)

Offline sail32

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.44-40 & IMR 4227
« on: March 10, 2014, 02:48:00 pm »

I am looking for reloading information using IMR4227 in a Uberti Henry and a Pietta 1873 Colt copy with a 7 1/2 barrel.
I am using the Mav Dutchman 44 Cal 200 grain Big Lube bullet.

Safe pressures and accuracy are of my main interest, velocity is not a concern as they are not for CAS shooting.

The case capacity of the .44-40 at 40 gr water and the 45 Colt at 42 grains of water would suggest some compatibility of data.

What is the proof pressure of the .44-40 ?

Thank you.

Offline Abilene

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 03:44:07 pm »
Disclaimer: I have no experience with IMR 4227 powder and I am not an engineer.

However, 4227 is advertised as a "magnum" powder, and IMR does not list any use for that powder for 44-40.  Nor is that powder listed for 45 Colt loads, until you select "45 Colt (Ruger, Freedom Arms, and T/C Only)", and that is with bullets of 225gr and larger.  Neither the 1860 Henry nor the SAA are designs that are overly robust for hot loads.   I would suggest that 4227 may not be a good choice.

But what do I know?

Offline w44wcf

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2014, 06:24:19 am »
Sail32,

The MAP (maximum average pressure) rating for the .44-40 is 15,000. Proof loads are generally 20-30% higher.

I have shot a fair amount of H4227 in my original '73 made in 1882. I don't know how that compares to your lot of IMR4227 so a disclaimer is in order.

My H4227 load for a 200 gr cast bullet is 17 grs. and for a 215 gr cast bullet, 16 grs.  Primers: Federal 155.  Pressures taken in a ballistic lab are right around the 15,000 mark.

There is some partially burned powder grains in the barrel and a little bit in the fired cases due to the lower pressure but that doesn't hurt anything. Accuracy has been very good.

w44wcf  
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 06:31:04 am by w44wcf »
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Offline sail32

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2014, 12:33:06 pm »
w44wcf

The researching the web suggest that IMR4227 and H4227 are similar enough that there would be no noticeable difference.

Based on the case volumes and reloading information I would assume interchange ability between the .44-40 and .45 Colt.

I cannot see the manufactures Pietta and Uberti, making any difference between their weapons during manufacturing, steel, dimensions etc, except in the chambering.

My older copy of Lyman’s #47 does list a load for IMR-4227 between 16.5 and 18.5 grains for a 200 grain jacketed bullet, but I am shooting a lead cast bullet.

The possible difference of pressure between the bullets is a concern or perhaps I am just being too cautious. The difference of CUP and PSI pressure units was not helping either.

I found reference for 13,000 CUP for the .44-40 and 15,000 CUP for the .45 Colt

The 15,000 you mentioned is that CUP or PSI ?

Thank you for your information.

Sail32

Offline sail32

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2014, 02:32:33 pm »
Commission International Permanente ( CIP )

http://www.cip-bobp.org/

Cartridge page pages

.45 Colt = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=4&cartridge_type_id=4

.44-40 = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=6&cartridge_type_id=2

.38-40 = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=5&cartridge_type_id=2


From the pages;

.45 Colt =    M = 12.5   PT max = 1100      PK = 1265   PE = 1430
.44-40   =   M = 17.5   PT max = 1100       PK = 1265   PE = 1375     EE =  890 
.38-40  =   M = 17.5   PT max = 1150     PK = 1323   PE = 1440     EE =1945   

It looks like a typing error for the .45 Colt and it should be;  PE = 1375

CUP psi

.45 Colt =    PT Max = 15954 psi    PK =  18347 psi   PE =  19942 psi
.44-40   =     PT Max = 15954 psi    PK =  18347 psi   PE =  19942 psi
.38-40   =     PT Max = 16679 psi    PK =  19188 psi   PE =  20885 psi


PT max     = maximum average pressure (bar)
PK         = 1,15 Pmax = maximum statistical individual pressure (bar)
PE      = 1,25 Pmax = mean proof pressure (bar)
M      = location of the pressure take (mm)
EE       = proof kinetic energy (Joule)
Notice: For conformal or tangential transducers the location (M) is that defined by the manufacturer.

One bar = 14.503778 psi
One gram = 15.4323584 grains
 
C.I.P Cartridge dimensions

.45 Colt = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page78.pdf

.44-40  = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-ii/tabiical-en-page108.pdf
 
.38-40  = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-ii/tabiical-en-page98.pdf


From “ Modern Reloading 2nd Edition “, by Richard lee, 2003, 2012 reprint.

Useful case capacity in cc

.45 Colt    = 1.93 cc
.44-40   = 2.07 cc
.38-40   = 2.13 cc



« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 12:14:07 pm by sail32 »

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2018, 09:52:19 am »
I know this is another old topic but I wanted to add some information that could be helpful.

Pressuretrace II data [PSI] using a 20" MGM barrel

SAAMI lists the 44-40 as a Rifle Cartridge
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Z299-4_ANSI-SAAMI_CFR.pdf
Page 33, SAAMI MAX 11,000PSI

The following loads were tested using RSI's Pressuretrace II Module.

Loads per Lyman's 49th Handloading manual page 299-300

My Results
Group I Rifles (Winchester 73')
18.5gr IMR4227
200gr JHP Speer #4425
1,097fps @ 9,205psi

17gr IMR4227
210gr Lyman 427098 LRNFP
1,127fps @ 9,389psi

Group II Rifles (Winchester 92, Marlin 1889/94)
20.5gr IMR4227
200gr JHP Speer #4425
1,300fps @ 12,604psi

My Custom Loads
22gr IMR4227
210gr JHC Sierra
1,407fps @ 15,500psi

20gr + .5cc buffer
217gr 43-215C
1,418fps @ 16,500psi
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 09:54:54 am by Bryan Austin »

Offline scrubby2009

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2018, 10:43:47 am »
Thanks to all of you for the detailed research and sharing the information. I reload for plinking and hunting in 44WCF and 38WCF.  Bryan, I was especially intrigued by your placement of the M1889 Marlin in Group II. Interweb browsing had brought me to the understanding that the '89 is  constructed of an older (read as weaker) steel and therefore not approved for hot loads. Care to expand on your knowledge for me?  I ask because I have an '89 in 38WCF and enjoy pushing the limits with it.  A bit dainty compared to the robust M1873, but a fine rifle and easy to woods-carry.
Responsive, timely, tactically accurate, and strategically precise fire.

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2018, 12:29:10 pm »
Thanks to all of you for the detailed research and sharing the information. I reload for plinking and hunting in 44WCF and 38WCF.  Bryan, I was especially intrigued by your placement of the M1889 Marlin in Group II. Interweb browsing had brought me to the understanding that the '89 is  constructed of an older (read as weaker) steel and therefore not approved for hot loads. Care to expand on your knowledge for me?  I ask because I have an '89 in 38WCF and enjoy pushing the limits with it.  A bit dainty compared to the robust M1873, but a fine rifle and easy to woods-carry.

Scubby, I love hot loads too but I also have a Marlin model 1889 that I have no desire to shoot hot loads in. I have a modern Marlin model 1894CB that I have shot a few thousand hot loads through.

Keep in mine that I can always be WRONG but I have done my best to search very deep, almost daily, to gather what truths I can about the 44-40/44WCF cartridges and the firearms chambered for them.

Get you a copy of Lyman's 49th handloading manual. Lyman lists 19 rifles chambered for the 44-40 separated into two groups. 10 rifles in Group I and 9 rifles in Group II.

Lyman lists hot loads as high as 21,900cup for Group II rifles. I have loaded and shot both Lyman's Group I and Group II loadings. I, thus far, have tested nearly 500 shots with the Pressuretrace II strain gauge Module, my 20" MGM barrel, and only TWO of my loads came in higher than Lyman's hotest load. I have not tested Lyman's high pressure Red Dot charge but nonetheless only two of my custom charges came in higher than Lyman's highest result.

Tons of information on the 44 Center Fire Cartridge website. Question everything...keep an eye out for errors!!!
https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/

Also, if you want some awesome factory loads, go get some of Buffalo Bore's 44-40 "Heavy" loads, said to be loaded within SAAMI's 11,000psi/13,000cup limits. These are the loads I used as my "control" for the pressure strain gauge tests.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=513
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 12:32:39 pm by Bryan Austin »

Offline Roscoe

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2018, 05:07:51 pm »
If it was going to be a common load for rifle and pistol, I would load for the pistol, for which I would not stray from data published by common, formalized sources. Lyman told me that 700-x gave their best result in 200 gr lead, and at .430 it was so accurate and nice shooting in my Uberti 1875 Remington Outlaw that I have never tried anything else.


I use a lot of IMR 4227 in 41 Magnum/210 gr, 44 Magnum/430 gr, and my 45 Colt Redhawk/250 gr. Considering what it does to the brass at near compressed loadings, where it performs best, it would never occur to me to use the powder in 44-40.

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2018, 05:41:34 pm »
Lyman told me that 700-x gave their best result in 200 gr lead,
edited: I forgot that was for pistol loads!!


Quote
I use a lot of IMR 4227 in 41 Magnum/210 gr, 44 Magnum/430 gr, and my 45 Colt Redhawk/250 gr. Considering what it does to the brass at near compressed loadings, where it performs best, it would never occur to me to use the powder in 44-40.

Both IMR4227, 2400 and a few others, for some reason much to the surprise of folks...is in the manual.

According to the Lyman manual, for the 200gr JHP Speer #4425, The low end IMR4227 gave them the best groups. For the Lyman 427666, SR4756 low end gave the best groups as well as for  the Lyman 427098...all Group I loads.

Lyman lists Unique, 2400, IMR4227, Bullseye, 700X AA#2, SR4756, Red Dot and Green Dot pending bullet used.

I have a special Reloder 7/210gr JHC Sierra load (1,403fps) that gave me 17 shots in a 4" group at 100 yards. Another Reloder 7 load (1,373fps) with a 240gr SWC that gave me 20 shots inside a 4" circle at 100 yards. Loads range between 11,000psi to 13,000psi depending on the bullets used.

I have discovered that 40gr of Swiss FFg compressed about .17" in original semi-balloon head cases produce 14,000psi while 40gr of Swiss FFg in modern RP cases with a .21" compression results in 8,843psi...basically 10 shot averages.

Oh wait I forgot, Lyman's 700X gave them the best Universal Receiver accuracy....I was referring to rifle loads. For revolver loads they also list Nitro 100, ZIp, N340 and True Blue
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 11:32:53 am by Bryan Austin »

Offline Roscoe

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2018, 09:22:42 am »
Interestingly enough, that's not what the manual suggest.


Both IMR4227, 2400 and a few others, for some reason much to the surprise of folks...is in the manual.

According to the Lyman manual, for the 200gr JHP Speer #4425, The low end IMR4227 gave them the best groups. For the Lyman 427666, SR4756 low end gave the best groups as well as for  the Lyman 427098...all Group I loads.

Lyman lists Unique, 2400, IMR4227, Bullseye, 700X AA#2, SR4756, Red Dot and Green Dot pending bullet used.

I have a special Reloder 7/210gr JHC Sierra load (1,403fps) that gave me 17 shots in a 4" group at 100 yards. Another Reloder 7 load (1,373fps) with a 240gr SWC that gave me 20 shots inside a 4" circle at 100 yards. Loads range between 11,000psi to 13,000psi depending on the bullets used.

I have discovered that 40gr of Swiss FFg compressed about .17" in original semi-balloon head cases produce 14,000psi while 40gr of Swiss FFg in modern RP cases with a .21" compression results in 8,843psi...basically 10 shot averages.

Oh wait I forgot, Lyman's 700X gave them the best Universal Receiver accuracy....I was referring to rifle loads. For revolver loads they also list Nitro 100, ZIp, N340 and True Blue
Since you corrected yourself at the end, perhaps you could edit out the beginning where you dismissed what I wrote.


Note that the first sentence in Lyman's rifle section on 44-40 reads "these loads should not be used in handguns...".


It was a good catch that IMR4227, even A2400, actually is listed under 200 grain handgun. I wouldn't have been drawn to use of a magnum powder. Your results using those powders is enlightening.


I think the answer to the OP's question is to buy a copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Use of IMR4227 is clear enough, but since he wants to serve both rifle and pistol, the handgun loads seem the more appropriate.

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2018, 11:38:06 am »
Since you corrected yourself at the end, perhaps you could edit out the beginning where you dismissed what I wrote.


Note that the first sentence in Lyman's rifle section on 44-40 reads "these loads should not be used in handguns...".


It was a good catch that IMR4227, even A2400, actually is listed under 200 grain handgun. I wouldn't have been drawn to use of a magnum powder. Your results using those powders is enlightening.


I think the answer to the OP's question is to buy a copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Use of IMR4227 is clear enough, but since he wants to serve both rifle and pistol, the handgun loads seem the more appropriate.

Absolutely! I get so caught up in the rifle data at times......Sometimes I reply from my email rather than from the forum, it also gets confusing which email is referring to which forum too!!

Since this is a CAS forum I would suggest Trailboss' published load to be used in both revolver and rifle. If accuracy is needed along with a little killing power...Lyman's max revolver loads with Unique and 2400 yield good results.

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2018, 11:40:13 am »
On a side note...here is a video of my high pressure IMR4227 260 yard target hit with a 240gr SWC from this morning's trip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcx0ujP47Cg

Of course, this load is not for revolvers or 73' type rifles.

Offline Bunk

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2018, 09:23:47 pm »
If it is not in a reliable loading manual developed by people from a complete ballistics laboratory with pressure gun and so forth don't do it.
"Data" produced  by Earl Bagadonuts will get you or some one near you hurt and an expensive gun ruined.

I learned about hand loading from a book by Phil Sharpe The Complete Guide to Handloading with powders like Lightening and HiVel#2
to name a few.

And that, my friends, was a long time and many pounds of powder and bullets ago.

I do not claim to be an expert but I do claim a few years of experience.

According to the Master Gun Plumber as "ex" is a has been and a 'spurt" is a drip under pressure.
I agree
Bunk

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2018, 07:59:01 am »
If it is not in a reliable loading manual developed by people from a complete ballistics laboratory with pressure gun and so forth don't do it.
"Data" produced  by Earl Bagadonuts will get you or some one near you hurt and an expensive gun ruined.

I learned about hand loading from a book by Phil Sharpe The Complete Guide to Handloading with powders like Lightening and HiVel#2
to name a few.

And that, my friends, was a long time and many pounds of powder and bullets ago.

I do not claim to be an expert but I do claim a few years of experience.

According to the Master Gun Plumber as "ex" is a has been and a 'spurt" is a drip under pressure.
I agree
Bunk

I choose not to, thank you for your concern.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAAT0PMTGCU&list=PL5bplooWWnaSm7Nxjne2LeLaz2I-xTMds&index=5
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 11:27:31 am by Bryan Austin »

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2018, 04:35:14 pm »

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2018, 06:32:03 pm »
Here is a typical black powder shot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ySI2OepM9M&index=3&list=PL5bplooWWnaSm7Nxjne2LeLaz2I-xTMds

Greetings My Good Bryan -

thanks for the fascinating data.
any idea why the graph drops just before and after "1.0" ?

yhs
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Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2018, 07:38:42 pm »
Greetings My Good Bryan -

thanks for the fascinating data.
any idea why the graph drops just before and after "1.0" ?

yhs
prof marvel

Yes, it's called a CAB problem. That is the "Coalition Against Bryan". It is a split second signal loss, for the lack of a better term at the moment. Typically a "connection" issue but it has yet to be resolved completely. I got it down to it happening in maybe two in ten shots. Doesn't affect the pressure spike any thought.

Here is one for the PTII website from a 223 I think it was. Notice the blue line at the end. The secondary spike is from a lightly loaded charge published in a manual or two!  You know....always trust manuals!! I guess I "de-Bunk-ed" that one!
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 07:44:38 pm by Bryan Austin »

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2018, 08:14:20 am »
here is one of my typical 44-40 ten shot groups.
Informative information only ;-)

Group #40 (+- 400 total shots tested)
10 shot group
28gr Reloder 7
.429 205gr 43-210B (Lyman 427098 replica)
Bullet Length .646
AOL 1.654
CCI-300 Primers
Case Length 1.292
Seating depth .284
Volumetric H2O 42.40gr



« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 06:11:31 pm by Bryan Austin »

Offline Bunk

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2018, 03:25:56 pm »
Hi Austin,
OK you have all the goodies to test and it works for you in your gun. However if someone else uses your data and has a kboom their lawyers may come looking for you.
The chance of a Kboom with real black gun poder is slight I would imagine but using that data in a pawn shop special mighr be another story.
Neat equipment though and i am sure people would like to see more from your testing with different combinations of bullet, powder, and primer with the .44-40. I don't have a .44-40 but it is interesting reading.
Cordially
Bunk

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2018, 03:46:23 pm »
However if someone else uses your data and has a kboom their lawyers may come looking for you.


Yeah, and they will be in for a shock too. Can't get blood from turnip.

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2019, 11:55:17 am »
Revisited today to try and get better documentation.

Still nothing to write home about for you long distance shooting types but for me, this is the best I have done so far. I have just now started shooting at these distances so I still have some things to work out other than the cartridge issues.


1 Jan 2019
265 yards...not 260
44-40 Marlin 1894CB with scope (proving the cartridge not the shooter)
22gr IMR4227 (not for weak action rifles)
240gr SWC (because that's just what I am using for now, I have tons of them)


These first shots was at 200yards. They grouped low left just off target. Adjusted elevation and windage few shots


As expected hits started out low left. I got a good group then adjusted elevation and windage again.


A little size comparison


More size comparison


5 hits on target with the one miss (i goofed, there were 6 hits and 1 miss and I failed to note one more hit. I had already hit it a few times before the video as can be seen from the "light colored" splatters)

VIDEO
https://youtu.be/BNUfAjkLxus
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 03:50:06 pm by Bryan Austin »

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2019, 03:24:42 pm »
LOADS NOT FOR THE WINCHESTER TYPE WEAK ACTION RIFLES or revolvers.

Today was a tad bit better and concluded my 265 yard shooting. All I wanted to do was replicate the 1866 Switzerland test when they used the Winchester 66' and the Henry cartridge at 300 paces. Testings from 300 paces shooting at 6ft x 6ft targets resulting in 1.5ft x 1.5ft groups. This information can be seen here: https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/

My results may not be as pretty or graceful but close enough nonetheless.

Video, although crude, gives a overall sight picture from the scope mounted iphone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EFtT6en1h0

Target reconstructed in my basement for measurements. Splatter target vertical line was the lineup.


With the splatter target removed, the center of target is marked. initial shots were low but after bring them up, all 40 shots could have grouped inside the 1.5' x 1.5' desired area.

The mud splatter is from my friend's 7mm mud hits...lol

There is the target way down yonder!!!!!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 03:26:20 pm by Bryan Austin »

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2019, 12:36:48 pm »
Tried it again this morning and boy did I freeze to death. When I started it was 19deg F and when I left it was 21deg F.

WARNING: The load listed in the photo exceeds SAAMI max pressures for the 44-40 by....A LOT...and are MY results that could be inaccurate! Use at own risk. Not intended for weak action rifles like the Winchester 73', old or new...nor for revolvers.

Loads used in my custom MGM barrel produce higher pressures and velocities than those used in the Marlin 1894CB.
Velocities from the 20" MGM barrel avg 1,562 while the shots from the 24" Marlin avg 1,498...not off by much!
Pressures could also increase in hotter weather.

I started to find that sweet spot but it too soon drifted away!





SHOTS FROM THE MGM BARREL A FEW DAYS AGO


Offline Bunk

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2019, 08:20:41 pm »
Hi Bryan,
I do not want to start a fight with you but it bothers me that some chowder head will decide that, warning notwithstanding, will try to use your data in a toggle link rifle and violently disassemble it.

I am somewhat surprised that an old war horse like the .44-40 can be driven even in a proper strong action to those pressures and velocities.

Do you have any loosening of primer pockets?

Thanks for your hard work doing this research and keep it coming.
Yr’ Obt’ Svt’
Bunk