Author Topic: .44-40 & IMR 4227  (Read 10232 times)

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2018, 03:46:23 PM »
However if someone else uses your data and has a kboom their lawyers may come looking for you.


Yeah, and they will be in for a shock too. Can't get blood from turnip.

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2019, 11:55:17 AM »
Revisited today to try and get better documentation.

Still nothing to write home about for you long distance shooting types but for me, this is the best I have done so far. I have just now started shooting at these distances so I still have some things to work out other than the cartridge issues.


1 Jan 2019
265 yards...not 260
44-40 Marlin 1894CB with scope (proving the cartridge not the shooter)
22gr IMR4227 (not for weak action rifles)
240gr SWC (because that's just what I am using for now, I have tons of them)


These first shots was at 200yards. They grouped low left just off target. Adjusted elevation and windage few shots


As expected hits started out low left. I got a good group then adjusted elevation and windage again.


A little size comparison


More size comparison


5 hits on target with the one miss (i goofed, there were 6 hits and 1 miss and I failed to note one more hit. I had already hit it a few times before the video as can be seen from the "light colored" splatters)

VIDEO

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2019, 03:24:42 PM »
LOADS NOT FOR THE WINCHESTER TYPE WEAK ACTION RIFLES or revolvers.

Today was a tad bit better and concluded my 265 yard shooting. All I wanted to do was replicate the 1866 Switzerland test when they used the Winchester 66' and the Henry cartridge at 300 paces. Testings from 300 paces shooting at 6ft x 6ft targets resulting in 1.5ft x 1.5ft groups. This information can be seen here: https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/

My results may not be as pretty or graceful but close enough nonetheless.

Video, although crude, gives a overall sight picture from the scope mounted iphone


Target reconstructed in my basement for measurements. Splatter target vertical line was the lineup.


With the splatter target removed, the center of target is marked. initial shots were low but after bring them up, all 40 shots could have grouped inside the 1.5' x 1.5' desired area.

The mud splatter is from my friend's 7mm mud hits...lol

There is the target way down yonder!!!!!

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2019, 12:36:48 PM »
Tried it again this morning and boy did I freeze to death. When I started it was 19deg F and when I left it was 21deg F.

WARNING: The load listed in the photo exceeds SAAMI max pressures for the 44-40 by....A LOT...and are MY results that could be inaccurate! Use at own risk. Not intended for weak action rifles like the Winchester 73', old or new...nor for revolvers.

Loads used in my custom MGM barrel produce higher pressures and velocities than those used in the Marlin 1894CB.
Velocities from the 20" MGM barrel avg 1,562 while the shots from the 24" Marlin avg 1,498...not off by much!
Pressures could also increase in hotter weather.

I started to find that sweet spot but it too soon drifted away!





SHOTS FROM THE MGM BARREL A FEW DAYS AGO


Offline Bunk

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2019, 08:20:41 PM »
Hi Bryan,
I do not want to start a fight with you but it bothers me that some chowder head will decide that, warning notwithstanding, will try to use your data in a toggle link rifle and violently disassemble it.

I am somewhat surprised that an old war horse like the .44-40 can be driven even in a proper strong action to those pressures and velocities.

Do you have any loosening of primer pockets?

Thanks for your hard work doing this research and keep it coming.
Yr’ Obt’ Svt’
Bunk

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #25 on: Today at 12:59:45 AM »

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2019, 10:49:11 PM »
It's late at night for me and I ought not reply  ;D but I'm gonna!!

it bothers me that some chowder head will decide that, warning notwithstanding, will try to use your data in a toggle link rifle and violently disassemble it.
Oh well, can't fix stupid...but ignorance can be educated...hence my posts. The 45-70 and 45 Colt loads can also be loaded hot for strong firearms. The 44-40 is not the only cartridge that can be loaded hot that shouldn't be fired in certain firearms. Stupid people will be stupid and I refuse to live life at a lesser standard to enable them to continue to be stupid...or refuse to learn!

Quote
I am somewhat surprised that an old war horse like the .44-40 can be driven even in a proper strong action to those pressures and velocities.
I guess you are surprised because you didn't know...see above reply.

Quote
Do you have any loosening of primer pockets?
I have not had the first problems whatsoever with any components. I have reloaded my brass so many times I lost count and have had only ONE split case and I honestly feel that was because it was damaged while being loaded, not because of the abuse.

Quote
Thanks for your hard work doing this research and keep it coming.
Yr’ Obt’ Svt’
Bunk


Thank you.....it has been a very long and tiring road over the past ten years.....and it got expensive too...for me.

I just don't want folks to get upset because I used the word ignorance. We all are, I know I still am and always will be. It can be a harsh word but it shouldn't be. I am less ignorant about the 44-40 today than I was even a year ago but I stay ignorant about many other things.

Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. The word ignorant is an adjective that describes a person in the state of being unaware, and can describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts, or individuals who are unaware of important information or facts.

People may shy away from the unknown...and then it will always remain to be the unknown. Then there are the stupid red neck ones that say...hold my bear and watch this!!!!

What I have done has always been....ever since 1903! I have only loaded 5 test groups that probably have exceeded 22,000cup 1903-1938 Winchester factory loads as well as Lyman's 49th page 300, Red Dot loads of 21,900cup.

Lyman lists TEN weak action rifles for their Group I loads and an additional NINE strong action rifles for their high pressure loads. How many people out there are even aware that there are at least Nineteen rifles that were chambered for the 44-40 cartridge?

The high pressure, high velocity 44-40 loads are on the very bottom end of the 44 magnum spectrum in both velocity and pressures

Owning a Marlin 1894 chambered for the 44-40 and not using it to it's fullest capabilities is like owning a Lamborghini Veneno and never going faster than 55mph. The car and rifle are capable, but is the driver and shooter?

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2019, 05:26:03 PM »
The contents in the photo is intended for conversational purposes.
USE AT OWN RISK!

Open image in new window for full view.



Platform used is custom built with an MGM 20" barrel

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2019, 11:22:01 AM »
This morning was the morning I have been looking forward to for a long time! After all this load testing I finally got the scope back on the CB and opened her up on that illusive GOLF BALL at 265 yards. The Below is some detailed handloading information for this Group II rifle.

My "Go-To" Powders

Reloder 7 for 1,300fps @ 11.000psi for the Winchester 73'/Marlin 1889 and IMR-4227 for 1,650fps @ 19,000psi for the Marlin 1894CB. The Marlin 1889 falls under Lyman's Group II rifles but I like to take it easy with it. It is a solid and strong rifle in design and age.

Marlin 1894CB 44-40
Bore: .429

Starline Brass trimmed 1.300"
CCI 300 Primers
26gr IMR-4227
200gr Acme Magma sized .430

1,650fps @ 19,000psi
This should closely replicate Winchester's "High Velocity" 22,000cup loads intended for the Winchester Model 92'

RCBS "Cowboy" Full resize
Lyman 44 Magnum "M" expand die
RCBS "Cowboy" Roll Crimp

Lee Perfect Powder Measure

I made a few shots to get the scope sighted in @ 100 yards
Top shots


I then adjusted the sights POA @ 265 yards

My friend Wes was there so it made it even more fun!

 

This morning was the morning I have been looking forward to for a long time! After all this load testing I finally got out the ole girl and opened her up on that illusive paper target at 265 yards with open sights. The sights, with my eyes, are even more blurry in the photo when I try to aim. Below is some detailed handloading information for this Group II rifle.

Marlin 1889 44-40 (button mag) manufactured in 1891.
Bore: .429

Starline Brass not trimmed 1.295"
CCI 300 Primers
25gr Reloder 7
200gr Acme Magma sized .427

1,300fps @ 11,000psi

RCBS "Cowboy" Full resize
Lyman 44-40 "M" expand die
RCBS "Cowboy" Roll Crimp

Lee Perfect Powder Measure


Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44-40 & IMR 4227
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2019, 08:38:43 PM »
Hi Bryan,
I do not want to start a fight with you but it bothers me that some chowder head will decide that, warning notwithstanding, will try to use your data in a toggle link rifle and violently disassemble it.

I am somewhat surprised that an old war horse like the .44-40 can be driven even in a proper strong action to those pressures and velocities.

Do you have any loosening of primer pockets?

Thanks for your hard work doing this research and keep it coming.
Yr’ Obt’ Svt’
Bunk

Here is a little more information.
Sharpe's 1937 manual shows several rifle loads recommended by Hercules and Du Pont that produce pressures of 14,000, 16,000, 20,000 and [27.5gr 2400] @ 33,000......I assume c.u.p.
[approx. 28,000psi or much much more]

Revolver pressures to 15,000.....I assume c.u.p. [approx. 12,690psi] This even more so falls in line with my testings with black powder original unheadstamped cases.

Powders used for rifle were 2400, Unique, Sharpshooter, Lightning, 1204, SR80 and 4227. The 4227[IMR] shows 29gr @ 1,890fps but no pressures.
Powders used for revolver were #5, #6, Bullseye, Unique, SR80, SS FFG, and RSQ

The manual does not specify what specific weapons to, or not to use such loads but folks back then were not as stupid...or ignorant as folks can be now days. Back then Winchester ammo boxes were color coded and had WARNING labels on the hot loaded 44-40s to NOT BE USED IN THE WINCHESTER 73' and PISTOLS. However, what is explained in the text of the manual is that such 33,000psi loads should never be exceeded in rifles and whereas such 30,000psi loads in revolvers would be disastrous.

To further give an example of the older manual (powders and loads may change but pressures are pressures) Rifles 33,000max, revolvers 15,000max.

The best way to be educated is to learn the history......history forgotten is history surly to repeat itself. Rather than tell someone what not to do, they need to be told why.....and it needs to be explained truthfully.

I was told once a long long time ago....practice does not make perfect....only perfect practice makes perfect!

 

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