Author Topic: Need help / Marine question.  (Read 9270 times)

Offline Sam Perfye

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 184
  • Al Weaver
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Need help / Marine question.
« on: January 02, 2014, 08:23:09 pm »
To all, I have a couple of questions concerning an 1880's USMC impression. First, when and what side-arms were issued? Second, would a non-com possibly have a private purchase side-arm? Third, , what leather would have been used? Finally, when was rank authorized on the blouse instead of the jacket? Thanks all for what help you can give. Al.
Raise the Black Flag and ride hard boys, Our cause is just and our enemies our many.

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3836
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2014, 05:49:49 pm »
Would have beenmostly cartridge conversion 1851s up to 1889.  A brief, limited experimental issue of Rolling block single shot .50 pistols around the early 1870s  After that the Various mods of the Colt Navy M1889 DA.   Ned Nederlander can advise you on the accoutrements needed.  Rank on Blouses after 1899 I believe.

I suspect a senior noncom might be able to private purchase a side arm.  Thats just my opinion, though it seems that is something Senior NCOs have done throughout history.  In addition, shipboard marines of the Victorian era were sometimes equipped with equipment provided by the captian of the ship assigned.  I believe it was the captain of one of the ships involved in the Korea incursion of the 1870s that insured his marines were armed with ROlling Block carbines, at a time when most marines were still weilding ML Springfields!

 
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Sam Perfye

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 184
  • Al Weaver
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2014, 07:25:34 pm »
Thanks Chuck, those were my thoughts also. I was hoping to pair my 60R-M with my trapdoor. Wasn't sure if I had correct leather or if I needed to find something more appropriate. Al.
Raise the Black Flag and ride hard boys, Our cause is just and our enemies our many.

Offline Niederlander

  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2244
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2014, 07:36:44 pm »
Al, I'm certainly no expert, but I'll share what I know.  Keep in mind that, from my research at least, nailing down much of anything the Marine Corps used for arms and equipment during the 1870's and 1880's is difficult, at best.  Drydock is right on the pistol.  Mostly they would have been issued the 1851 Navy conversions, but I would guess there was at least some latitude if you wanted to carry something else, especially if you were an officer or senior staff nco.  (I use an 1860 Army conversion personally.)  What they carried them in is more difficult.  I would suspect they were usually carried in the Navy "frog" or an Army style flap holster.  The belt for officers was white patent leather for "undress", but I would think they would have used black leather for field use.  On the other hand, Marines of the time didn't spend a lot of time in the field, but were mostly on ships.  The rifles used are difficult as well.  I know that in 1870 the Chief of Ordnance shipped 3,000 Model 1868 Springfields to the D.C. Barracks.  Most of the time Marines would have used whatever the ship's armory had, whether that was the 1870 Navy Rolling Block or maybe later the Lee .45-70 bolt action.  I know that pictures of Marines in the 1890's show them armed with .45-70 Trapdoors, but I don't know when that change took place.  I personally use the 1868 Springfield.  I need to make contact with the General again to see if he can access the full 1875 uniform regulations to find out more about the equipment.  The Marine Corps of the time was extremely small, and it doesn't seem like a lot of research has been done on much of our period.  World War 1 was when we really hit the public scene and more documentation exists.  Hope that helps a little at least!
"There go those Nebraskans, and all hell couldn't stop them!"

Offline Sam Perfye

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 184
  • Al Weaver
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2014, 06:13:26 pm »
Ned, I agree, documention for the 1870-1890 time period is very hard to find. With what I've found and what has been posted here I think (always dangerous) that I can do a fairly accurate 1880's impression. Tan duck trowsers, dark blue cotton blouse, CW pattern leggings, tan campaign hat creased fore & aft, Mills belt, and a black haversack. Hadn't thought of using a Navy frog but it is interesting. I'll keep digging and see what happens. If nothing else should make for a good bull session around the fire. See y'all in June. Al.
Raise the Black Flag and ride hard boys, Our cause is just and our enemies our many.

Advertisers

  • Guest
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #5 on: Today at 08:43:04 am »

Offline Guns Garrett

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 517
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2014, 03:35:00 pm »
The GAF has available the 1875 Marine Corps Uniform regulations here:  http://www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org/uniforms/usmc1875.htm

An 1880's Marine NCO would have worn a uniform not much different than that of those worn during the Civil War; Indigo-blue blouse, sky-blue trousers with red stripe, and a "chasseur"- or kepi-style cap.  The USMC also issued blue (dress/winter) or white (summer/field) helmets during the 1880's, until about 1905. After 1892 the field cap changed to more of a "pillbox" style WITH a bill, and later (1905) to a Bell-crowned style.  The field ("slouch") hat did not come into use until 1898, creased fore-and-aft like the Army, until the "Montana Peak"/"Mountie-style" came into use in 1912.

 In the very late 1880's Marines may have begun wearing a version of the blue wool Army shirt (collarless with white buttons), with the blue trousers , and after 1898, khaki.  Rank insignia was NOT authorized on shirts (khaki) until after 1902 or thereabouts. Most photos (very few) I have seen of Marines in the 1880's show them carrying shoulder-slung cartridge boxes.  The use of cartridge belts began with the issue of the M1895 Winchester-Lee ("Navy Lee") straight-pull clip-loader, whose belt was of blue webbing with black pebble-grained leather cartridge clip pouches, with blue cloth suspenders.  Marines began using the Mills web belts after adoption of the Krag by the USMC during the Span-Am War.  Marines also began wearing khaki leggings similar to the Army's, about the time of the S-AW, as well.

I have seen a Span-Am War photo of a group of Marines in Samoa, showing the troops with Lee Navy riles, and the officer wearing what appears to be an Army-style "Schofield" holster and ammo pouch, either black or russet leather, worn on the right hip, butt to the rear. Below is this photo, rather small, but perhaps some details can be seen:
"Stand, gentlemen; he served on Samar"

GAF #301

Offline River City John

  • NCOWS Senator
  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3683
  • Mr. & Mrs. John Covert
  • NCOWS #: L-146
  • GAF #: 275
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2014, 04:45:18 pm »




These scanned from two I have from Company of Military Historians. Not sure how helpful. I had collected them when I had my Lee Navy.


RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

Offline River City John

  • NCOWS Senator
  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3683
  • Mr. & Mrs. John Covert
  • NCOWS #: L-146
  • GAF #: 275
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 04:51:38 pm »
And here's a watercolor of Vol. Army of the period. Field modifications and all.

"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

Offline River City John

  • NCOWS Senator
  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3683
  • Mr. & Mrs. John Covert
  • NCOWS #: L-146
  • GAF #: 275
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2014, 04:59:30 pm »
Here's a site covering action in Korea, 1871 with images.
http://www.shinmiyangyo.org

RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

Offline Sam Perfye

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 184
  • Al Weaver
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 06:55:28 pm »
Thanks all for the comments, looks like I may be more appropriate for an1890's impression than an 1880's. I'll try to get some photos up in the next few days. It always amazes me what one can learn here with some simple  questions. Al.
Raise the Black Flag and ride hard boys, Our cause is just and our enemies our many.

Advertisers

  • Guest
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #10 on: Today at 08:43:04 am »

Offline Guns Garrett

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 517
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help / Marine question.
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 08:43:44 pm »
Here's "shirt-sleeve order" from the 2008 Muster...and Full Dress for the Saturday nite Banquet!
"Stand, gentlemen; he served on Samar"

GAF #301

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk

© 1995 - 2020 CAScity.com