Percussion shotguns in competitions

[Books OToole]

Oh rats. That would be a bummer after I went through the contusions of finding a percussion double. I realize I am only one feller and truth be told, I havent shot competition in some years, so, who am I to say. guess I understand the reasoning behind it and there is logic alright. Still, a bummer. Oh well, guess I can find someone to buy the ole front stuffing scattergun if I cant use it.

Don't get rid of it yet.  The Congress may not vote that way.


Books

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Harley
THAT OLE FRONT STUFFER MAKES FOR A REAL TURKEY KILLER .

[Blair]

Question?

Would a stage scenario be considered equal (makes no difference how the SxS shot gun was loaded) if the scenario only allowed two shot gun targets during the stage?
  Blair

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[Cole Bluesteele]

The current "Pistoleer" class which requires two cap & ball pistols, a rifle and shotgun all loaded with BP, does limit the number of shotgun rounds per stage to two rounds.  That class is where the muzzleloading shotguns are typically used.

[harleydavis]

If I remember Pistoleer rules correctly, it limited the number of shotgun rounds to just 2 rounds in a stage. It did not matter if the shooter was using breech loader or muzzleloader. If a feller wanted to use it in another class requiring more than two rounds, you would have to take the misses in your score. Percussion aint fast, just style points.

[Blair]

Down sizing the number of rounds is easier for the breach loaders than it is to expect a reload for the muzzle stuffers and still be able to keep the competition competitive for all the shooters. Especially in a "Classification" where Muzzle stuffers are allowed!
Adjusting the rounds in a given Stage Scenario is best to keep things competitive. Otherwise, delete the muzzle stuffer "Classification" altogether from the competition.
Just my thoughts on this subject,

[Montana Slim]

The criteria for Pistoleer hasn't changed since it's introduction (to the best of my memory):

Men’s and Women’s Pistoleer: Shooters are restricted to the use of percussion revolvers, pre-1873 percussion or original/authentic reproductions of rimfire cartridge pocket pistols, exposed-hammer double-barrel shotguns (percussion or cartridge), and reproduction or original pre-1873 pistol-caliber repeating rifles (e.g. 1860 Henry, Spencer, 1866 Winchester, etc: Shooters must shoot blackpowder or approved blackpowder substitute powder in all firearms except those chambered for rimfire cartridges. Pistols and revolvers must be shot one-handed. Pistoleer shooters will shoot the same course of fire as the other competitors except that in a stage requiring more than two shotgun rounds the Pistoleer shooter would not be required to shoot the extra rounds.

Essentially, this means Pistoleer will only fire two shotgun rounds per stage...no-one has ever been disadvantaged by loading the ML shotgun in this class.

My experience has been limited only to NCOWS competition at the National Shoots...over the past years I've maybe seen four muzzleloading shotguns used in this class. So, I'd say the majority in this category have used breach loading hammer guns.

Slim

[Cliff Fendley]

A little off topic here not pertaining to the shotgun but...... if someone proposes an amendment to the proposal on pistoleer.... I would also recommend specifying the pre 1873 type rifle as well. If passed the way the proposal is written it could allow later model rifles changing pistoleer even more.

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

Good point Cliff.  I failed to notice that. 

[Cole Bluesteele]

The pre 1873 rifle requirement makes sense to me.

[Books OToole]

The criteria for Pistoleer hasn't changed since it's introduction (to the best of my memory):

Men’s and Women’s Pistoleer: Shooters are restricted to the use of percussion revolvers, pre-1873 percussion or original/authentic reproductions of rimfire cartridge pocket pistols, exposed-hammer double-barrel shotguns (percussion or cartridge), and reproduction or original pre-1873 pistol-caliber repeating rifles (e.g. 1860 Henry, Spencer, 1866 Winchester, etc: Shooters must shoot blackpowder or approved blackpowder substitute powder in all firearms except those chambered for rimfire cartridges. Pistols and revolvers must be shot one-handed. Pistoleer shooters will shoot the same course of fire as the other competitors except that in a stage requiring more than two shotgun rounds the Pistoleer shooter would not be required to shoot the extra rounds.

Essentially, this means Pistoleer will only fire two shotgun rounds per stage...no-one has ever been disadvantaged by loading the ML shotgun in this class.

My experience has been limited only to NCOWS competition at the National Shoots...over the past years I've maybe seen four muzzleloading shotguns used in this class. So, I'd say the majority in this category have used breach loading hammer guns.

Slim

Hey guys;  read the bold print.

Books

[Cliff Fendley]

That's why I mentioned it, Books. Making too many changes in that class gets away from it's intent.

[Blair]

As I see it... a person registers in Pistoleer Class, has all the correct arms and power to play/compete in a multi gun competition.
Now, what if a stage scenario calls for more than two shotgun rounds?
Doest the Pistoleer play in that scenario? (wouldn't be very competitive)
Or does he/she have to two shotguns, a ML and a BL. If they want to play/compete on an equal footing? (this maybe a great expense... and be out of reach for many participants)
Another words... how may firearms is anyone individual going to have to have if they wish to be reasonably competitive in any given scenario?
How about changing the scenarios to meet the arms/munitions, needs/limitations for ALL the classification allowed during any given multi gun shooting match?
Easier to change the number of rounds shot, than it is to build whole matches around a specific classification of shooting style.

[OklaTom]

As I see it... a person registers in Pistoleer Class, has all the correct arms and power to play/compete in a multi gun competition.
Now, what if a stage scenario calls for more than two shotgun rounds?
Doest the Pistoleer play in that scenario? (wouldn't be very competitive)
Or does he/she have to two shotguns, a ML and a BL. If they want to play/compete on an equal footing? (this maybe a great expense... and be out of reach for many participants)
Another words... how may firearms is anyone individual going to have to have if they wish to be reasonably competitive in any given scenario?
How about changing the scenarios to meet the arms/munitions, needs/limitations for ALL the classification allowed during any given multi gun shooting match?
Easier to change the number of rounds shot, than it is to build whole matches around a specific classification of shooting style.

As in all the NCOWS Classes, a shooter only competes against those in the same class.  So, say someone is in the Shootist Class and you are in the Pistoleer Class.  The scenario calls for 4 (or more) shotgun targets.  The Shootist has to shoot 4 (or more)shotgun targets.  But the Pistoleer, by the rules set forth, only has to fire two.  The other two shots are omitted for the Pistoleer.  Most folks, when writing the scenarios, will have a note that says something like "Pistoleer, omit all but two shotgun rounds, Working Cowboy omit second pistol and shotgun".  That is still a fair arrangement, because the Pistoleer is only competing against other Pistoleers who have the same 2 shotgun round limitation.  So, a single shotgun, cartridge or percussion, is all the Pistoleer needs.  A Pistoleer only needs one pre-1973 Rifle, 1 SxS Shotgun with external hammers, and 2 percussion revolvers.

[Dynamite Bill]

yeah, & a sense of humor. "cause them pistolas do not allways co-operate, from my "speriunce anyway.

[Montana Slim]

Gee I really need to get back to shootin' with you all someday.....I give "Pistoleer" demonstrations for a very looow fee.

Slim

[Cliff Fendley]

Pistoleer being lumped together as a class also dont get penalized on a pistol reload either like they would if you were competing with C&B pistols in another BP class.

[harleydavis]

That has been proposed; but the Congress has not yet voted on it.  The vote will happen two weeks from tonight.

Books

Will you post the results of this vote so I dont have to wait for  The Shootist delivery to learn the outcome? IMHO, too much is being played with in terms of categories. If you try to make a class for everyone that wants to shoot a certain way, pretty soon everyone will have their own category so we are all "winners". Leave the categories stand the way the founders set 'em. Just my 2 pennies worth.

[Cole Bluesteele]

If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you always got.  NCOWS needs to grow. Our income is down.  If we plan to stay around changes are in order.  Once again the proposed classes are what the members who responded asked for.

[Cliff Fendley]

Will you post the results of this vote so I dont have to wait for  The Shootist delivery to learn the outcome? IMHO, too much is being played with in terms of categories. If you try to make a class for everyone that wants to shoot a certain way, pretty soon everyone will have their own category so we are all "winners". Leave the categories stand the way the founders set 'em. Just my 2 pennies worth.

The proposal does not 'play' with a bunch of categories other than pistoleer and a couple others. It just adds the two pistol and rifle class which has been very much excepted at the posse levels and it also separates working cowboy so black powder and one handed shooters arent lumped in with someone that want's to shoot light gamer loads.

It is not right if only the people wanting to shoot four guns get to be separated by each style and powder type and every one else is all lumped together.

In recent National shoots there are four gun categories with only one shooter in them and sometimes none at all yet over 50% of the shooters are in one class. There is something wrong when close to 60% of the shooters are all shooting the same class because there is nothing else for them.

The proposal is a very good one, there just may need to be a little tweaking on this so we don't alienate our traditional shooters that the pistoleer class is supposed to represent.