Author Topic: OFFICIAL 1851 thread (post pictures here)  (Read 100079 times)

Offline Doc Jackson

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Re: OFFICIAL 1851 thread (post pictures here)
« Reply #140 on: December 11, 2018, 10:55:45 am »
RSJ How does it shoot with respect to POA to POI?

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: OFFICIAL 1851 thread (post pictures here)
« Reply #141 on: December 11, 2018, 02:19:17 pm »
To be honest, I don't really remember!   ::)

I shot off two or three cylinders on that occasion (six or more years ago) then cleaned it up thoroughly and "retired" it to its rightful place in the collection ...  My vague recollection is that it printed high from point of aim, at the relatively close range I was shooting it, just as the reroductions tend to do.

Mind you, my 1970's vintge reproduction London Navy has an anomalously high front sight post, which they did back in those days to bring the point of impact down at the close ranges at which modern shooters tend to fire them. The reproduction is actually one of a "semi-commemorative" batch sold by the Canadian distributor for Navy Arms back in the mid-1970's, each one of which has a facsimile of the original "Upper Canada" or "Lower Canada" issue markings, with a cavalry troop letter and "rack number" stamped on the grip, like the 800 original revolvers acquired in 1855/56 by the United Province of Upper and Lower Canada. In this picture, the inset shows a blowup of the front sight post of the original revolver, on the left of the inset, compared to that of the reproduction on the right ...) Presumably needless to say, the original revolver is the upper one in the photo ...)

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Doc Jackson

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Re: OFFICIAL 1851 thread (post pictures here)
« Reply #142 on: December 11, 2018, 02:36:03 pm »
Thats a really nice repro, looks close to the original. Do the rack numbers correspond with the the units you portray?

Offline Abilene

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Re: OFFICIAL 1851 thread (post pictures here)
« Reply #143 on: December 11, 2018, 02:55:27 pm »
Comparing three different 1851s (top down):
# Hartford-London Navy from 1855
# Italian Uberti made Navy 1:2.125 scale (same steel as the replicas: fully functional but non firing)
# Japanese Ohba made Navy 1:4 scale (made of blued silver: fully functional but non firing).
Long Johns Wolf

I'm impressed, too!  Didn't see this post earlier.

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: OFFICIAL 1851 thread (post pictures here)
« Reply #144 on: December 12, 2018, 03:56:27 pm »
Thats a really nice repro, looks close to the original. Do the rack numbers correspond with the the units you portray?

No, as you can imagine, with only 800 original revolvers acquired almost 165 years ago, surviving examples are pretty scarce, and as nearly as i can ascertain, the semi-commemorative issue in the 1970s didn't even reach the full number of originals, so I basically took what I could get with both of them.

The originals were acquired for issue only to the established Troops of Volunteer Militia Cavalry in Upper and Lower Canada, but I don't do any cavalry impressions.  (Given my size, if I did I'd likely have to portray one of the horses rather than a Trooper!)  

My original revolver is marked "U_C" (for Upper Canada) over "B" (the letter desgnation, in order of seniority, of the St. Catharines Troop) over "4" (number 4 of the 50 revolvers issued to the Troop) -  

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/600x655q90/922/MdAVHg.jpg

Interestingly, all of the Upper Canada revolvers markings applied by the Militia armourer in Toronto were oriented "upside down" on the grips like you see above ... so presumably he laid them out on the bench with the grips "up"  ... and the markings applied to the revolvers marked in Montreal are all the other way round, so that armourer no doubt had the revolvers oriented on the bench the other way when he stamped them - i.e. with the grips "down" ... When the distributor was marking the reproduction "commemoratives", they apparently wanted to avoid any suggestion they (or some subsequent seller) were flogging "fakes", so they used e a different font of letters and numbers, of a larger size than the originals, and also oriented the markings the other way on the grips - i.e. "right way up" on the UC-marked ones, and "upside down" on the LC-marked ones.  

( ::) ... as if the Italian manufacturer and proof markings weren't enough to distinguish them ... or the grips couldn't simply be replaced ...  ::) )

When I bought the reproduction some years ago, it was offered in a Canadian firearms website's buy and sell section simply as a reproduction Colt Navy revolver - no mention of it being a London model, nor of the markings on the grip panel. This was before I acquired my original, and I could tell from the photos posted that it was a London model (although the grip markings were not visible in the pictures) so I jumped on it ... with the idea that I could do facsimile markings on the grip to make a "pseudo Canada Colt" as a place-keeper in my growing collection of Canadian military handguns.  Imagine my surprise when it arrive and such markings were already there! It is marked "U_C" over "A" (for the Frontenac County Troop hedquartered at Kingston) over "11" ... (At first, I thought somebody else had simply had the same idea for a personal "one-off", but later learned about the Navy Arms distributor's limited issue back in the '70's and subsequently confirmed that this was one of them.

Of possible interest, here is the Militia General Order of 18 May 1856 directing how the various new weapons acquired for the Militia were to be distributed and marked.  Note that about half of the text of the Order is given over to instructions for loading, disassembly, cleaning and reassembly of the "six shooting Colt's pistol" -



And while I'm "on a roll", here is a copy of the receipt given by the Captain of the Essex Troop of Cavalry ("I") for the arms and accoutrements issued for his Troop -

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

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Re: OFFICIAL 1851 thread (post pictures here)
« Reply #145 on: Today at 08:25:13 am »

Offline Doc Jackson

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Re: OFFICIAL 1851 thread (post pictures here)
« Reply #145 on: December 13, 2018, 11:05:04 am »
When were these replaced and with what?

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: OFFICIAL 1851 thread (post pictures here)
« Reply #146 on: December 13, 2018, 06:12:12 pm »
Doc, Canada did not acquire any more "military issue" handguns until 1885!  Keep in mind that our Militia operated under regulations drawn from those of the United Kingdom, and under that system officers got "issued" with little or nothing by the government; rather, they were required to supply all of their own uniforms and kit (including weapons) by private purchase at personal expense.  Since a handgun was, for the most part, an officer's weapon, the government didn't need to supply any.  Starting in 1867, Canadian cavalry were armed with Snider-Enfield cavalry carbines rather than handguns.  (The North-West Mounted Police, established in 1873, were not really military, being administered by the Department of Justice rather than the Militia Department.  They always had issued handguns, starting with the .450 Adams British service revolver, followed in the early 1880s by the British Enfield service revolver, which remained standard until 1905, when they adopted the Colt New Service revolver.)

However, in early 1885, with the outbreak of the North-West Rebellion, the Canadian Department of Militia & Defence acquired the rather odd quantity of 1,001 Model 1878 double action revolvers, chambered in .45 Colt, through the New York outfitting firm of Hartley & Graham.  These were all nickel-plated, with 7.5" barrels and black hard rubber grips.  This is the one in my collection which, like the majority of this model, had no government property markings applied -



The next military-issue handgun acquisition was a few more .45 Model 1878 Colts at the outbreak of the 2nd Anglo-Boer War in 1899, but then in 1900 they switched to ordering the early version of the Colt New Service revolver, the first shipment of which were also chambered in .45 Colt, but then changed to chambering the British .455 service revolver cartridge (at the request of the British War Department, which was supplying all the troops sent to South Africa, and didn't want the hassle of supplying any more .45 Colt ammunition than they had to ...)  This is the Boer War-vintage Canadian-issue Colt New Service in my collection ... .455 caliber, shipped April 3, 1900, with Militia & Defence "M & D" property stamp -

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: OFFICIAL 1851 thread (post pictures here)
« Reply #147 on: November 29, 2019, 06:39:49 pm »
My .38 Colt cartridge project test gun:  1851 Kirst Konverted, unlined barrel....





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CO. F, 12th Illinois Cavalry  SASS # 6127 Life * Spencer Shooting Society #43 * Motherlode Shootist Society #1 * River City Regulators

Offline Rube Burrows

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Re: OFFICIAL 1851 thread (post pictures here)
« Reply #148 on: June 02, 2020, 09:28:47 am »
Here is my 1851 Conversion
"If legal action will not work use lever action and administer the law with Winchesters" ~ Louis L'Amour

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