Disaster - blew up a '58 Remmy conversion

[Beauregard Hooligan]

I had a disaster last night. I wanted to go out and fire one round into my big cottonwood tree to celebrate the New Year. I inserted five rounds into my Taylor's conversion cylinder. left the dog in the house, as she is spooked easily, and aimed at my four foot wide tree. When the pistol went off, it was a detonation instead of a gunshot. It sounded like a M67 fragmentation grenade going off. The result was catastrophic. The top three chambers were gone, and the top strap looks like something from the Hunchback of Notre Dame. The cylinder will not rotate and I can't get the critter apart without a hammer. I'll do that, as I want to take those unfired rounds and knock them apart; find out exactly what the powder charge in them weighs. Here are some photos:





[IMG]http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd244/beauhooligan/blownup58Remington001.jpg[/IM


The load was mild, a Bear Creek Supply 225 gn RNFP ahead of 5.3 grains of 700-X, which is the starting load in the Lyman manual #49 for a 230 gn lead bullet, with a max charge of 6.5 grains. Speer's manual #14 gives a minimum charge of 5.3 gns, and a max charge of 6.0 with 700-X. The Hornady 8th edition manual gives a load for a 200 gn lead bullet that is minimum of 5.7 gns and a max of 7.1 gns. I did due diligence on my research, and was very careful in the loading process. I thought a minimum charge with a light bullet was the safe way to go. The only odd thing was that the bullet was intended for .45 ACP, so I changed my Hornady crimp die to a Lee taper crimp die, due to a lack of crimp groove. I loaded these on a Dillon 650 XL progressive machine and powder measure that has never given problems previously, and I use a powder check die to confirm a case that is empty, or one that is overcharged. I was building these low pressure loads for shooting with The Outlaws next Saturday, and had only loaded 19 round so far, so I knocked the remaining ones apart with an impact bullet puller. I could find no problem with the powder charges in any of the remaining cartridges. So, all I can say is the old CAS saw that, "Sometimes cartridges with small volume pwder charges in big cases go BOOM. I'm very glad of two things. I'm pleased as punch that I'm okay. I'm also glad that this happened when and where it did, as the shrapnel pinged of the wall of the house, and if this had happened next Saturday on the line, some of my posse partners could have been hurt or worse. I've never in the 43 years I've been reloading had any kind of failure, other than bad primers. This has left me shaken. What a way to welcome 2012.

[PJ Hardtack]

Beauregard - thanks for your honesty in reporting this incident. Good thing you survived the incident unscathed! Guns are replaceable.

I hope that you are able to determine the cause. In the meantime, I will continue to avoid using minimum charges in large volume cases.

[Rafe Covington]

Glad you were unhurt by this incident, had the same thing happen years ago with a Ruger SBH. I had a load crack a  44 Mag cylinder with 8 gr. Unique, don't load fast buring powders anymore in large cases.

Again glad you are alright.

Rafe

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[Hill Beachy]

I'm just glad that you still have all of your fingers and toes!

(You DID count them afterwards, right?)

[Beauregard Hooligan]

I'm just glad that you still have all of your fingers and toes!

(You DID count them afterwards, right?)

Hello old friend. How are you doing. It's great to see you still around and active. You are a good person and I'm proud to know you. God bless you. PM me sometime.

Yes, I have all of my appendages, though still have a bit of ringing in the ears. That sucker was LOUD; it was very much like a M-67 frag going off.

The strange thing is that I had what I think is the solution to this problem on my bench; a 9 oz can of Trail Boss powder I picked up earlier that day; the only can available in town. I actually ordered a 5 pound canister of the powder from Cabela's earlier in the week, and it should arrive by UPS on wednesday or thursday. I remember when the idea of a bulky smokeless powder for CAS was floated, and folks said that it couldn't be done and that there wasn't a market to sell it in sufficient quantity to make it profitable. Was it Birdshot that came up with the idea originally? Now, after all these years, I'm going to embrace it like a long lost lover. I do not think that this would have happened it I had been using Trail Boss powder. I'm going to send the cylinder to Taylor's, and if all they do is pronounce it an expensive paperweight because of me using handloads, they will know what happened. I never had ant idea of how thin the cylinder walls were between chambers; .040, and even less at the bolt cuts.
None the less, I'm going to work up loads for my CAS cartridges; .44 Mag (.44 Russian Extra Long), .44-40 and .45 Colt, and if it works as well as folks say, I'll never look back.

It;s good to hear from you Amigo. After last night, you were the medicine I needed to feel better. Be well and prosper amigo, and perhaps we will see each other soon, but will certainly meet at the Great Round Up in the sky, one of these glorious days.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Or Holy Black

[Junkman]

Looks like a double charge to me rather than a detonation of a small charge. A lot of folks use small smokeless powder charges in the .45 Colt case with no kabooms, but a double charge will get you almost every time! Progressive re-loaders are notorious for this type of occurrence.

[PJ Hardtack]

With a progressive reloader properly operated, it is almost impossible to dump a double charge. In my experience with Dillon reloaders, no powder will be the most likely problem. Especially with the early manually operated powder dispensers, one of which I still use occasionally. A 'mechanical memory' sequence is essential for safety and uniformity.

I don't use the Dillon powder checker gadget as I like simplicity in my reloading operations. If I ever get out of sequence for any reason, I start from scratch until all the stations are filled and I avoid distractions of any kind - no radio, TV, nada, zip, zilch. The only interruption I tolerate is my wife.

As I've said before, the two cylinder detonations I've witnessed both used ammo loaded on single stage presses. Simple 'block checking' would have prevented them.

[Pettifogger]

With a progressive reloader properly operated, it is almost impossible to dump a double charge. In my experience with Dillon reloaders, no powder will be the most likely problem. Especially with the early manually operated powder dispensers, one of which I still use occasionally. A 'mechanical memory' sequence is essential for safety and uniformity.

I don't use the Dillon powder checker gadget as I like simplicity in my reloading operations. If I ever get out of sequence for any reason, I start from scratch until all the stations are filled and I avoid distractions of any kind - no radio, TV, nada, zip, zilch. The only interruption I tolerate is my wife.

As I've said before, the two cylinder detonations I've witnessed both used ammo loaded on single stage presses. Simple 'block checking' would have prevented them.

The key, of course, is PROPERLY OPERATED.  Unfortunately there have been more "detonations" with progressive presses than all others combined.  No powder manufacturer has ever been able to cause a "detonation" with reduced charges.  Powder can produce only so much energy.  There's usually no way to tell since the round and gun have "blown-up" and pulling the remaining bullets does nothing to tell if there was a double or triple charge in the blown case.  Heck there was a "famous" article in one of the shooting magazines where two idiots blew up three single actions before they realized lube in the seating die was pulling the bullet out of one case and seating it on top of the next round on their progressive press.  Thank goodness the poster was uninjured, but the most likely culprit was a double charge.

[Beauregard Hooligan]

I've been loading and reloading since I was 16, and at age 59, I have a bit of experience under my belt, along with a degree in engineering. With that in mind, I've been thinking and talking to others about this, and there are several possible causes. The first possible cause is an accidental over charge of powder. I have a powder check die on both of my Dillon 650XLs, but a distraction could have caused me to miss the high pitched electronic tone. When in our modern lives are we 100% free of distraction? The barrel was clear, both before and after the shot, so obstruction is out as the factor. Another cause could be metal failure in the conversion cylinder; it was the first round that was fired through it. The cylinder is made from 4140 steel, and the cap assembly is made from 4150, and they are proof tested to SAAMI standards for standard velocity ammunition. Another is the curious, but not well defined, occurrence of a small powder charge being ignited in a large cartridge case, somehow causing a detonation, rather than the normal progressive burning of smokeless powder; blowing up the piece. Many respected gun writers, from Charles "Skeeter" Skelton to Mike Venturino, have tried to come up with an answer for this, and failed. This remains an unsubstantiated event, and should only be considered when all other possible causes are relegated to the trash bin. To the double bullet theory; I have to feed my bullets one at a time, by hand, in my 650XL progressive reloading machine, and for one cartridge to end up with two bullets would mean an empty case goes by the crimp die and falls into the tray, scattering powder everywhere; that did not happen. The bullets that I use come from Bear Creek Supply and are molybdenum disulphide coated, so there is no wax lube to build up to trap a slug. I spoke to the folks at Taylor's today and the conversion cylinders are not warrantied when used with reloaded ammunition, which if you read the fine print, you will find in the flyers included with guns from many major makers. Also, Taylor's does proof the cylinders with SAAMI .45 Colt proof loads, so the misconception that these cylinders are only safe with black powder it just that, a misconception. Smokeless powder is built on two compounds, nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine. Some powders use one compound and are called "single based", others use both compounds and are called "double based". Smokeless powders has been around for well over a century and is safe when used properly. Abandoning smokeless powder because nitroglycerine is explosive, in the pure state, is simply silly. We might as well give up gasoline powered automobiles, as gasoline is flammable in the liquid state, and explosive as a vapor. Black powder is an explosive, and cannot be shipped in any way other than by truck. I have seen other guns blown up in my time. They were all muzzeloaders, using black powder. Some guys just think that a gun barrel can be filled with BP, a ball seated (but not completely on the powder), and that it's all good. Nothing can be more wrong. This leads to split barrels and chunks of the breech flying in all directions. I was well along to becoming a member of the American Mountain Men, the hard corps pre-1840 brigade, until I was told I'd have to lose my big safety eyeglasses and trade for watch crystal versions. 
     I am going to Trail Boss powder for all of my non-magnum loads from here out, as a double charge of what I use for CAS will overflow the case. It's funny, 700-X and Trail Boss look the same, circular flakes with a hole in the center. The visual difference is that 700-X is black and Trail Boss is a greenish color. Trail Boss is formulated to be bulkier, so that it comes much closer to filling the case. I tried throwing two charges of 6 gn charges of Trail Boss into a case, and the second charge over flowed. If a double charge happens with Trail Boss, the powder check die would catch it, or I will see it when I go to seat a bullet.
     When it comes down to it, the most likely cause, by Occam's law, that being the simplest explanation will be the most plausible until evidence is presented to prove it false. Somewhere I screwed up; operator or "Pilot" error. Anyway it goes, I'm out a pistol and cylinder, which is trivial compared to losing an eye or having to have my trigger finger sewn back on. I'll take Harry Truman's position and say, "the buck stops here", with me, and be glad there was nothing wounded other than replaceable steel.
     Thank you all for you well wishes and regards for my safety.

[Trailrider]

First let me explain that it is impossible for there to be a "detonation" with the propellants we use. Ballistically, the definition for a true detonation is an event that produces a shock front in excess of 25,000 ft/sec. There is simply NOT enough chemical energy in these propellants, in these quantities, even with a double charge of powder to produce a detonation wave.
Having said that, however, what we get in these instances is an overpressure. (Yeah, I know, the gun is still wrecked.)  There are several things that can cause that, first and foremost is an overload.  However, with a powder check die, that is less likely in this situation.
   What causes me to sit up and take notice is the fact that a relatively light weight bullet having no crimp groove, and held in the case by a taper crimp, may have caused a phenomenon sometimes called "ignition delay overpressure".  Smokeless powders require 5,000-7,000 psi (NOT CUP) pressure to burn stabily.  Generally, a powder reaches this level fairly quickly (in milliseconds).    But, if the bullet is pushed out of the case too quickly in the ignition cycle, the pressure may drop enough to have the powder nearly "go out".  If the bullet hits the forcing cone with less force than that required to engrave the rifling on the bullet's surface, it may stop! When that happens, any remaining powder that hasn't burned completely will take off under the increased pressure. Smokeless powders are "progressive burning", which means the higher the pressure, the faster they burn, and the faster they burn the higher the pressure. Chambers in .45 LC guns are traditionally cut pretty generously, which means the cartridge case has a ways to go before hitting the chamber walls. If the pressures exceed about 35,000 psi, the case will rupture, usually at the 3- and 9-o'clock positions. The hot gases then act like a cutting torch on the chamber walls, and at that point the cylinder splits and we have liftoff!  I would check to see if you can pull the bullets fairly easily. (You might need to rig a scale and see how much bullet pull you have in pounds, but it won't be easy to do.  We have seen this phenomenon before, and several ballisticians have been able to obtain data tending to prove this.
My recommendation is to use bullets that have a crimp groove or a forward driving band that you can use a ROLL crimp over. Also, check your expander plug to see if there is enough tension being placed on the bullet by the case, i.e. if your .45 LC expander is for a .454" bullet and yo are using a .452" slug.  (For further description/discussion see "Trailrider's Guide to Cowboy Action Shooting", and NO I'm not trying to sell books!)

[Beauregard Hooligan]

First let me explain that it is impossible for there to be a "detonation" with the propellants we use. Ballistically, the definition for a true detonation is an event that produces a shock front in excess of 25,000 ft/sec. There is simply NOT enough chemical energy in these propellants, in these quantities, even with a double charge of powder to produce a detonation wave.
Having said that, however, what we get in these instances is an overpressure. (Yeah, I know, the gun is still wrecked.)  There are several things that can cause that, first and foremost is an overload.  However, with a powder check die, that is less likely in this situation.
   What causes me to sit up and take notice is the fact that a relatively light weight bullet having no crimp groove, and held in the case by a taper crimp, may have caused a phenomenon sometimes called "ignition delay overpressure".  Smokeless powders require 5,000-7,000 psi (NOT CUP) pressure to burn stabily.  Generally, a powder reaches this level fairly quickly (in milliseconds).    But, if the bullet is pushed out of the case too quickly in the ignition cycle, the pressure may drop enough to have the powder nearly "go out".  If the bullet hits the forcing cone with less force than that required to engrave the rifling on the bullet's surface, it may stop! When that happens, any remaining powder that hasn't burned completely will take off under the increased pressure. Smokeless powders are "progressive burning", which means the higher the pressure, the faster they burn, and the faster they burn the higher the pressure. Chambers in .45 LC guns are traditionally cut pretty generously, which means the cartridge case has a ways to go before hitting the chamber walls. If the pressures exceed about 35,000 psi, the case will rupture, usually at the 3- and 9-o'clock positions. The hot gases then act like a cutting torch on the chamber walls, and at that point the cylinder splits and we have liftoff!  I would check to see if you can pull the bullets fairly easily. (You might need to rig a scale and see how much bullet pull you have in pounds, but it won't be easy to do.  We have seen this phenomenon before, and several ballisticians have been able to obtain data tending to prove this.
My recommendation is to use bullets that have a crimp groove or a forward driving band that you can use a ROLL crimp over. Also, check your expander plug to see if there is enough tension being placed on the bullet by the case, i.e. if your .45 LC expander is for a .454" bullet and yo are using a .452" slug.  (For further description/discussion see "Trailrider's Guide to Cowboy Action Shooting", and NO I'm not trying to sell books!)

Howdy Trailrider mi hermano! It's been a long time since I thought of you. I appreciate what you presented. It certainly information that has weight on the issue. I disassemble the remaining rounds of the batch, and it took at least 2 to 3 blows from my inertia bullet puller to do so; so the crimp was strong. I am sure at this point that the most likely reason for the accident is an error on my part, specifically an increased or double charge of powder. I may never know what caused this, but I am going to examine my reloading process from step one, disassemble it from scratch, and look for any errors in my procedures that may have contributed to this, and do everything in my power to see this won't happen again. The first step is already in process by switching from 700-X, which is a fine shotgun and pistol powder for smaller metallic cases, to Trail Boss, which will come closer to filling the big cases, and thereby reduce the chance of an accidental overcharge. I am also going to relegate my bullets with no crimp groove to the .45 ACP cartridge, thereby eliminating that as the culprit. I'm going to drive out to Waterford, Ca. and visit Bear Creek Supply, this week or the next, and get Steve's opinion on the issue. I know that I am going to be sure that the nominal diameter of the bullets I buy are .454, and go with a bullet that is in the 200 gn range. I am also going to buy another '58 Remington and R&D conversion cylinder, as I really admire the combination. Thanks for the input Trailrifer, your input is always of value to me. All the best, Beau.

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Beau-
Good to "talk" with you again.  Just a thought...and I haven't talked with them lately...there's an outfit in Tyler, TX, Master Craft Bullets, that offers a 230 gr. bullet with grooves for the .45 Schofield.  Plus, they have a bunch of others.  You might see if they'd sell/send you a small sample to see if you'd like them. IIRC, you can get them to size them to .454" or .452".

Ride easy, Pard!

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Beauregard,

Just glad to have you shooting still .... I have an old non-SASS Webley Mk VI .... but I ordered a bunch of .45 Auto-Rim so that I would not 'accidentally' shoot some hot .45 with it ... going to have the Auto-Rim made up to 'cowboy load' specs so that I don't have similar results .. but you can never know without Non-Destructive-Investigation ... the previous .45 ACP rounds put through the weapon may already have made inroads that I don't know about ....

Best wishes,

WWE

[Beauregard Hooligan]

Howdy, Beau-
Good to "talk" with you again.  Just a thought...and I haven't talked with them lately...there's an outfit in Tyler, TX, Master Craft Bullets, that offers a 230 gr. bullet with grooves for the .45 Schofield.  Plus, they have a bunch of others.  You might see if they'd sell/send you a small sample to see if you'd like them. IIRC, you can get them to size them to .454" or .452".

Ride easy, Pard!

Thanks Trailrider, I'll look into that. As always, I think you are one of the best ambassadors CAS has ever had; you're the best of the best. Happy Tails amigo.

[Jefro]

Howdy Beauregard, glad yer ok, thanks for sharing this with us. Hard to say what happend , hard to double charge on a progressive, you'd have to double pump on the up stroke before the auto index, not likely to happen unless you stop to do something without lowering the ram. FWIW I use the Hornady powder cop, I can visually see the popper for each case. Glad yer alright, Good Luck


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Popa Kapoff]

Howdy Beauregard, glad yer ok, thanks for sharing this with us. Hard to say what happend , hard to double charge on a progressive, you'd have to double pump on the up stroke before the auto index, not likely to happen unless you stop to do something without lowering the ram. FWIW I use the Hornady powder cop, I can visually see the popper for each case. Glad yer alright, Good Luck


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

I managed to do it twice this year 2 out of 1200 {hornady LnL AP press}not bad and one was used in a shoot off  dualing trigger drove that fallling triger down real fast {I WIN} then lost in the second shoot off oh well.

[Tascosa Joe]

Master Crafters Schofield bullet is a pretty close copy of the Lyman 454190 and it runs 250 gr.  I have been buying them for years from him and his two predecessors.
T-Joe

[PJ Hardtack]

So, if small powder charges in large capacity cases and even double charges can not produce enough energy to cause catastrophic detonations, why do they continue to happen?

[Pettifogger]

So, if small powder charges in large capacity cases and even double charges can not produce enough energy to cause catastrophic detonations, why do they continue to happen?

They keep happening because people THINK they only dropped one charge and actually dropped more.  Doesn't matter how experienced a loader is, it only takes one second of inattention to have unforeseen results.  I have been loading for over fifty years.  Never had a primer go off in a progressive press until last year.  Primer tipped and got caught in the rotating primer wheel on my Dillon 650 and went boom.  Other than needing to change my skivvies, nothing else happened.  Double charges can certainly produce enough energy to cause a blow-up.  Remember, the previous poster was talking about a "detonation."  A lot of guns blow because of excessive pressure caused by an overload not a true "detonation."  The excuses I like the most are "the light charge caused a detonation" and "my new gun must have been made from bad steel."  All to frequently anymore no one wants to look in the mirror and admit they screwed up.