Author Topic: uniform questions  (Read 51707 times)

Offline cpt dan blodgett

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #100 on: November 29, 2011, 05:26:55 pm »
Still can't decide if I want to clue embroidered rifles to the front of mine to cover the 76 -80 period.  If I go CW then the 6th Inf Horn would be proper.  From most photos I see there was no branch insignia on the IW hats.  I seem to be compleled to balance out all the sabers and cannon I see on hats.  If I am going to wear shoulder boards on a blue shirt might as well go totally hollywood and put the rifles on the hat and be done with it.
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Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #101 on: November 29, 2011, 07:19:37 pm »
While I am looking at pictures of hats I want to ask about suspenders. Can anyone provide me with a picture of period correct suspenders? I have a pair of white canvas civil war suspenders with an X back and black leather tabs. They look like the pair below.  How are these?

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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #102 on: November 30, 2011, 06:21:02 am »
Those are actually probably a later period than the civil war, when most just had button adjustments and no leather tabs.

There wasn't a regulation  that I can find for braces until the late '80s
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Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #103 on: November 30, 2011, 08:15:02 am »
Can you let me know what those regs you did find said about braces?


So would these look appropriate for the IW and SAW period.
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Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #104 on: December 01, 2011, 05:27:19 pm »
One more question... solid pewter buttons vs stamped tin buttons. I see them both on repros. when were each used?
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Offline FTrooper

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #105 on: December 02, 2011, 04:55:28 pm »
Another source for pre-1872 epaulet insignia is Legendary Arms.  They also carry the full dress epaulets and the post-8172 shoulder knots.

http://www.legendaryarms.com/comofemcir.html


As for the "darb" campaign hats, this is always a fun topic and often VERY overlooked.  So without getting out the big book of hats (we are remodeling and getting to some bookshelves ain't as easy as I'd like since that is the "temporary storage room").  Here is a basic rundown.

Pre-1872  The black hardee hat beat and bent any way you want it.  Sometimes the top is "telescoped" to make a lower crown.  We also see alot of civilian private purchase hats.

1872 black hat is the one with an almost diamond shaped brim and folds up like a chapeau bra.  These are flimsy and shoddy and fall apart or loose shape when wet.  Army attempts to cut the brims down and stitch them to make them cap their shape.  It fails and the soldiers won't take them.  They end up issued to prisoners. (pictures exist of them still worn by some troopers as late as 1881)

The 1876 is a black hat is supposed to have a folded brim and a "propeller" or "Bracher vent", but they can also be found with a simple metal vent.  Hat cord and insignia are sometimes seen on this hat.

1883-This hat does not have the folded edge, but the reinforced stitching.  There is a screen vent about the size of a dine on each side.  They were made in drab and black.  Senior officers (Generals) were supposed to wear black.  A little know order gave the company commanders the choice of black or drab for their troop/company, but the whole company had to wear the same color.  By this time the lighter color had proven its worth (alot of private purchase white and light grey hats are known on the 1870's) and I have never seen a picture of a trooper or company in the black hats.  Hat cords and insignia are not seen on this hat.

1889-The screen vent is replaced with the the "snowflake punch".  This hat is the one worn during the Spanish American War.  Hat cords are still not worn, but the M1896 cap insignia is.  Originally in front and then on the left side as crop badges are placed on them during the Span-Am War.

1899-The screen vent returns but is now 1" big.  There are also "experimental" tropical versions with a corrugated papier-mache band between the hat and sweatband to help airflow.  The hat cord returns (with the acorns as opposed to tassels) and the M1896 insignia is back to the front (some had it stenciled in black ink like we see on canteens and haversacks).  You also see a trend towards just the regimental numbers and company letters in brass on the front.

1902-The folded brim is back and the "star punched" vent is introduced. we also see the chinstrap/stampede cord added.  Insignia is now the cord with bronze regimental numbers and company letters and no branch insignia (except for certain units like coast artillery and engineers).

All of the above hats are supposed to be flat brimmed and creased for and aft "like a fedora" (what movie is THAT from?)  However, even in the 1880's we see them with flat tops and even with the brims folded in front and/or back (not unlike F-Troop, I think it more a matter of poor storage than fashion)...in the 1890's the popular civilian "Montana peak" starts to show up and is quite common by the Span-AM war.

1911-The hat is now a darker drab (almost brown) than before, stitched brim not folded, four metal grommets (front, back, sides), chinstrap, Montana peak, and the only insignia is the cords.

1921-The hat is even a little darker (with a more greenish tent), the stitching is eliminated and the crown is lower and rounder (still has the four "Montana" dents).  This is the hat still worn by Army and Marine Drill Instructors.  Again, only the hat cord is authorized until the post WW2 era. (except marines who do wear the globe/eagle/anchor).

Again, this is off the top of my head (yes I know ALOT of unimportant information) and there could be an error or two.

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Offline FTrooper

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #106 on: December 02, 2011, 05:03:59 pm »
Suspenders-

The proper ones would be the M1883 (first regulation issue) and no one makes them (yet)...They are very rare and rarely even show up in books!  I MAY be working with a guy to repro them, but it is still probably a year off at this time.

Hoaplong:  You might want to invest in one or both of these books:

http://www.amazon.com/U-S-Army-Uniforms-Equipment-1889/dp/0803295529/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1322866723&sr=8-3

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130441274829?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

I will admit that a good 90% of each book is the same material.  If you are more interested in Span-Am period I can not recommend the second one (1897) enough.  If you want to cover the mid to late 1880's to Span-Am, the you are going to want the 1889.

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Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #107 on: December 02, 2011, 06:35:15 pm »
Thanks for the responses. They were most helpful.
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liten

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #108 on: December 03, 2011, 10:09:42 pm »
the first of the drab hats had the folded brim

Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #109 on: December 05, 2011, 10:26:32 pm »
What exactly is a folded brim?
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Offline cpt dan blodgett

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2011, 08:08:33 am »
Edge of hat brim folded back on itself and stiched down to re-enforce or stiffen brim

You still see it on some hats produced today
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Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2011, 08:49:55 am »
do you have a picture of a reproduction or original that woudl help me wrap my mind around this?
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Offline St. George

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2011, 08:51:10 am »
Look for a picture of the WWI Campaign Hat - it's most visible there.

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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2011, 10:36:25 am »
What exactly is a folded brim?
It almost looks like the hem on your blue jeans
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Offline FTrooper

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2011, 01:40:39 pm »
HOPALONG, Go the the thread about the High Quality M1876 hat.  You can definitely see it there.

Liten is correct, the first 1000 drab hats in 1883 were made with the folded brim (there we really just supposed to be drab 1876 hats).  When the official regs were published in 1884, the folded brim was deleted in favor of the stitching.

This is a superb book on headgear of the post Civil War military with alot of great pictures.  But it is a bit pricey.  Mine is in storage until we are done remodeling...so I can't double check my facts right now.

http://www.amazon.com/Hats-Off-Head-Dress-1872-1912/dp/0764309560/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323200330&sr=1-2

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2011, 08:29:53 pm »
its not a easy job folding the brim over either, and geting the stitching correct ???

Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2011, 09:03:56 pm »
I would imagine it is quite tough and takes a professional touch.
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Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #117 on: December 06, 2011, 10:08:45 pm »
wow! That is not at all what I imagined. The fold is very wide!
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Offline cpt dan blodgett

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2011, 09:23:00 am »
its not a easy job folding the brim over either, and geting the stitching correct ???

They probably used a folding fixture on the machines that sewed them
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Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2011, 10:53:20 am »
Right now I am using my Ruger Vaquero in 45LC.


I agree about shooting historical iron. It is so much fun! I will not own a rifle I would not shoot. I have many old rifles and virtually all of them are military and virtually all of them are pre-1950. I particularly like Victorian military rifles and have quite a few interesting ones. Here is a list of a few of my my early (pre 1910) military rifles.

Sch├╝tzengewehr M1858, Bavarian-1860
Enfield P1853 3-Band Rifled Musket, British-1860
Springfield Rifle Musket Model 1864, American-1863
Enfield Snider MK II*, British-1864
Springfield Trapdoor Model 1870, American-1870
Springfield Remington Rolling Block Model 1871, American-1872
Martini Henry Mk I, British-1874
Martini Henry Mk II, British-1877
Mauser Infanteriegewehr M1871, German-1877
Martini Henry Francotte Rifle, British (Nepal)-1878
Mauser Infanteriegewehr M1871/84,   German-1886
Springfield Trapdoor Model 1874, American-1887
Springfield Trapdoor Carbine Model 1883, American-1889
Infanteriegewehr 1888 Commission Rifle, German-1890
Infanteriegewehr 1888/05 Commission Rifle, German-1890
Mauser M1891 Cavalry Carbine, Argentinian-1899
Repetierstutzen M95/30, Austrian-1900
Krag Model 1898, American- 1902
Mauser Gewehr 1898, German-1905



Quite the array of weapons there,--very impressive Sir.

For all the trouble you're going to with the uniform, I felt it was my duty to mention the Smith & Wesson. The Trapdoor is fine going up against any other single shot, but you will be hosed, really badly, on time when it comes down to going up against any of the good break open, simultaneous ejecting revolvers with your Ruger or an SAA etc.

Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #120 on: December 07, 2011, 11:15:49 am »
Quite the array of weapons there,--very impressive Sir.

For all the trouble you're going to with the uniform, I felt it was my duty to mention the Smith & Wesson. The Trapdoor is fine going up against any other single shot, but you will be hosed, really badly, on time when it comes down to going up against any of the good break open, simultaneous ejecting revolvers with your Ruger or an SAA etc.

Who makes a good one and where can I find one at a reasonable price?
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Offline FTrooper

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #121 on: December 07, 2011, 11:43:33 am »
I have to agree with Charles on that.  Years ago a couple guys I know were having a hard time with the US Army's use of the M1870 Remington Rolling Block Single Shot Pistol in the age of the six-gun.  Yes it was a more powerful cartridge and such, but it just didn't seem to make since.  So they decided to do a bunch of side by side tests of a Remington RB pistol and a Colt SAA.

The most amazing and eye opening test was the 12 shots speed shooting (shots had to be somewhat aimed and no "fanning").  As can be expected the SAA made out with a fast lead, but after 6 they had to eject 6 rounds while manually indexing the cylinder and the load 6 more in while indexing the cylinder.  In that time the RB caught up and started to lap the SAA...end the end they pretty much ended at the same time! 

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Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #122 on: December 10, 2011, 11:53:13 am »
Quite the array of weapons there,--very impressive Sir.

For all the trouble you're going to with the uniform, I felt it was my duty to mention the Smith & Wesson. The Trapdoor is fine going up against any other single shot, but you will be hosed, really badly, on time when it comes down to going up against any of the good break open, simultaneous ejecting revolvers with your Ruger or an SAA etc.

Schofield secured. I shoudl have it in a few weeks. Thanks for the advice.
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Offline cpt dan blodgett

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #123 on: December 10, 2011, 10:27:04 pm »
Buddy of mine shot the match today with his twin schofields today..  Says they work really well.  His worked good, had some one tune them up and now they work really good.  Sad to say, I neglected to ask him to try them out.  A another buddy was going to shoot them, but some how he disappeared for a while in the mean time Buddy 1 put them away in the vehicle - oh well maybe next time.

They look interesting, treat them kindly even though they look pretty rugged they are not Super Black hawks.  Moderate loads and they should serve you well for a long time.  Save the hot loads for Rugers.  Probably telling you something you already know.

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Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: uniform questions
« Reply #124 on: December 23, 2011, 08:18:32 pm »
Schofield secured. I shoudl have it in a few weeks. Thanks for the advice.

The deal fell through. I am back in the market.
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