Author Topic: Black Powder in the 44-40  (Read 78716 times)

Offline ndnchf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #120 on: April 17, 2014, 05:30:47 PM »
One dead deer per shot.  ;D

You got that right pard!  I'm just thinking that with a carbine, it would take a couple milliseconds longer to do the job compared to a 24" barreled rifle.  I'm not an overly patient man, but I think I can stand the wait ;D
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline dusty texian

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #121 on: April 17, 2014, 06:24:36 PM »
Glad Y'all fired this one back up. I should be through with the stock work on my 1873SRC 44/40 soon and get it on the bench . ndnchf lookin forward to a range report on that re-barreled SRC . Hope it shoot's good as it look's,,,,,,,,Dusty

Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #122 on: April 17, 2014, 06:46:57 PM »
..........I have some 427098 bullets in 20-1, sized to .428".  The bore of my rebarreled carbine is .4295".  I was thinking these would be too small and not worth the bother of loading.  But after re-reading this thread, I'll load them with 35gr of Swiss 2F and see if they will bump up enough to shoot accurately.

One question I didn't see in this thread (but I could have missed it) is what is the expected velocity difference between a 24" rifle barrel vs a 20" carbine barrel?  1300fps seems to to be the original BP rifle velocity. All things being equal, what can be expected with the same load in a carbine?

ndnchf,
The difference in velocity between my '73 Short Rifle (21" barrel) and my 24" barrel was, surprisingly,  only 19 f.p.s. when I did the comparison several years ago (1,334 vs 1,315). That was with a full charge of 40 grs. of Swiss FFG (purchased in 2000) in vintage Rem-Umc SHBP (Solid Head Button Pocket aka balloon head) cases with Remington  2 1/2 primers.  

Based on that, a 20" barrel should only be about 25 - 30 f.p.s. less than a 24".  Of course, different rifles, different results.....

It will be interesting to see if the 20/1 alloy bumps up aok.   I did try 20/1 years ago but the difference between the bullet and groove diameter was greater at close to .005".  In that instance I did find that 50/1 did work better, producing better groups.

PLease let us know how your testing goes.

Thank you,
w44wcf  

 
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Offline ndnchf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #123 on: April 17, 2014, 07:32:39 PM »
Thanks guys. These are old 427098 bullets I've had laying around.  The SPG was pretty dry, so I freshened up the lube and loaded up 20 rounds with 35gr of Swiss 2F with CCI LP primers in Starline cases.  Due to an Easter family gathering, I won't get to the range until next week.  But I wanted to get some loaded before my loading room changes over to the buffet room for 30 people  ;)    I'd prefer a .430" bullet, but it will be interesting to see how these do.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline Rowdy Fulcher

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #124 on: April 17, 2014, 08:47:44 PM »
Howdy
The Swiss is clean burning powder , for black powder . If your wanting a good Vintage Hunting round the Swiss is the way to go .

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #125 on: Today at 10:09:25 AM »

Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #125 on: April 22, 2014, 07:14:34 AM »
Thanks guys. These are old 427098 bullets I've had laying around.  The SPG was pretty dry, so I freshened up the lube and loaded up 20 rounds with 35gr of Swiss 2F with CCI LP primers in Starline cases.  Due to an Easter family gathering, I won't get to the range until next week.  But I wanted to get some loaded before my loading room changes over to the buffet room for 30 people  ;)    I'd prefer a .430" bullet, but it will be interesting to see how these do.

ndnchf,
Since they are "old", it would be interesting to see what the actual BHN is since Lead/Tin alloys soften over time.  In other words, it might be that the "old" bullets may have softened to the equivalent of freshly cast 40/1 or 50/1 bullets ......

Happy Easter
He has risen!

w44wcf
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Offline ndnchf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2014, 12:05:33 PM »
ndnchf,
Since they are "old", it would be interesting to see what the actual BHN is since Lead/Tin alloys soften over time.  In other words, it might be that the "old" bullets may have softened to the equivalent of freshly cast 40/1 or 50/1 bullets ......

Happy Easter
He has risen!

w44wcf

Well "old" is a relative term, but in this case they are aorund 8 years old I think.  Is that enough time to soften up?  Unfortunately I don't have a hardness tester, but hope to get to the range later in the week and try them out.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #127 on: April 23, 2014, 07:13:27 AM »
ndnchf,
If you have a pure lead bullet or some other form of pure  lead that has a flat surface, and a steel ball 1/4"-3/8" in size. place the steel ball between the 20/1 bullet flat nose and the pure lead.  Press them together so the the indent diameter in the pure lead is at least .200".  Then measure the indent diameter in the bullet.  Based on that diameter, I can let you know what the BHN is.

Are those bullets that you had cast or ones you purchased?

w44wcf 
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
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Offline ndnchf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #128 on: April 23, 2014, 09:45:32 AM »
w44wcf - I've not heard of doing a comparison like that, but I'll  see what I can come up with and let you know.  I think I bought these bullets from Buffalo Arms, since I didn't have this mold.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline ndnchf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #129 on: April 24, 2014, 06:09:53 PM »
I took my newly rebarreled 1873 carbine to the range today and tried out 20 rounds of 44wcf loaded with 35 gr of Swiss 2F, and Lyman 427098 bullets lubed with SPG.  I shot over the chrono as I was curious of the velocity.  The average velocity was 1235 fps out of my 20" barrel.  These bullets were sized to .428" previously and my groove size is around .4295", so they are a bit undersized.  They averaged about 1.5" groups @25 yards.  Nothing special, but I'm sure it can do better with .430" bullets.  I'm spoiled having tang sights on most of my rifles, except this one.  The original rear sight has a very small V notch that makes it difficult to sight with my aging eyes.  But I figure this to be for close range use anyway, and it will do fine for that.

Here's a better photo of it wearing it's new barrel by John Taylor.

   

The rifles functions flawlessly, is smooth and is easy on the eyes ;D
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #130 on: Today at 10:09:25 AM »

Offline dusty texian

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #130 on: April 24, 2014, 06:15:52 PM »
Very Cool ndnchf. The SRC range day has been long awaited. Good to see it ,Look's Mighty Good,,,,,,Dusty

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #131 on: April 24, 2014, 07:07:45 PM »
Nice rifle
http://www.fendleyknives.com/

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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #132 on: April 24, 2014, 08:57:52 PM »
ndnchf,
Thank you for the range report.  Very neat looking piece of Winchester history you have.  ;D

Based on your sight set up and older eyes, I would say that 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards is very good. My '73 wears a tang sight and definitely groups better with my older eyes than when it had the same narrow sights as yours.

Original factory .44 W.C.F. ammunition available at the time your rifle was made was loaded with .424" pure lead bullets and shot well in a variety of bores since the soft elastic bullet would form a perfect fit to the barrel upon ignition of the b.p.



Consider the 30 shot target illustrated in the 1875 Winchester Catalog.  All rounds inside of 4" at 110 yards using factory ammunition. "Doc" Pardee said that the Winchester was steady in her performace........

For the best grouping results with cast bullets (The Winchester & UMC lead bullets were swaged.) I set any aside with visual defects and weigh within + 0 -  1/2 gr on a 200 gr. bullet.  That's as close as one can get to the swaged Winchester & UMC bullets.  Alloy shuld be no harder than 50/1.

Otherwise, the best groups will not be realized even with the proper sized bullets.

If you wanted to try larger bullets you could add another  2 grs or so of  powder and compress it with the bullet, which, if soft enough, will increase in diameter. A measure of the diameter of the outside of the case neck as compared to current will tell if the bullet diameter has increased.  Once you get it to the right diameter make sure that the increased neck diameter will still fit the chamber before loading a quantity.

I would say, though, that based on your results, the  bullet is bumping up to be a snug fit in the barrel.  Loading the best bullets (no flaws, weight variance heaviest - 1/2 grs. will improve the grouping ...... better sights would also help.

w44wcf

    

  
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Offline ndnchf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #133 on: April 25, 2014, 06:49:15 AM »
If the tang were drilled and tapped for a tang sight, I'd put one on it.  But its not and I don't want to alter it.  The new barrel has a new front sight that looks fine, but John left it as is so I could file it as needed.  Its a square profile and trying to fit that into the tiny V notch in the rear is hard.  I'm going to look close at the original front sight and try to contour the new one similar to it.  I use a Merit Optical attachment for my eyegasses, that helps somewhat.  Its about the closest thing to a tang sight I can get.

I don't have a 427098 mold, but I do have a 44 Mav Dutch mold that throws a .433" bullet that I can size down to .430".  This is what I will work with next.  While perhaps not as accurate at long range as the 427098, for the ranges I'll be shooting the carbine I think it will be just fine and carry plenty of lube for shooting any kind of BP.  I'll make some of a softer alloy, maybe 40:1 and see how they do. 

I've got Winchester, Starline and RP brass.  Which typically has the thinnest necks?  With the larger bullet, I may need to use the thinnest brass available to chamber.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline King Medallion

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #134 on: April 25, 2014, 06:07:01 PM »
Winchester brass will be the thinnest.

Offline ndnchf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #135 on: April 26, 2014, 06:38:47 PM »
It was a nice day so I set up my lead pot and cast a batch of 44 Mav bullets in 40:1.  They came out at .431" and I sized them to .430".  I lubed them with SPG and loaded them with 33gr of Goex 2F in Winchester cases. At .430 they were a close fit in the cases, but after running them through a Redding profile crimp die, they chamber freely. Maybe the next batch I'll try sizing to .429". With the soft alloy, I think they will still work well.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

 

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