Author Topic: Black Powder in the 44-40  (Read 78329 times)

Offline David Battersby

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2012, 05:36:13 AM »
Mav Dutch Big Lube from Whyte Leather Works.
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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2012, 07:46:24 AM »
David,
Thank you for the info. I know a couple of fellows that shoot at Atglen. "Sixgun", as he is called, shoots the old Winchesters. Haven't been able to talk him into b.p. ...... at least not yet. I originally met him and "Gunny" who use to run the Atglen Matches several years ago at a State Match in Bradford, PA.

The 2012 PA State Cowboy Silhouette Championship will be held in Ridgway, PA on Sept 1 & 2. I am planning on attending.
We had a handful of levergun enthusiasts at the Jubilee last year. A bunch of fun was had by all.
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/organize-your-hunt-shoot-get-together/72084-lever-action-jubilee-oct-15-16-2011-a-3.html

Please let us know how your testing goes with the 34/Swiss FFFG if you try it.

Jubal,
Thank you for the kind words. I have tried a number of different b.p. recipies in the 44 WCF / 44-40, trying to replicate the ammunition that the factories produced back in the 1800's and am happy to share what I have learned.

w44wcf   
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Offline David Battersby

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2012, 08:01:51 AM »


  Please let us know how your testing goes with the 34/Swiss FFFG if you try it.

  I finally got the time to load a box of fifty and go to the range.

  The results were not good. Poor accuracy, 8 inch groups/patterns/flyers at 100 yards. I did not have any lube on the muzzle, which I did with more compressed loads of FFFG Swiss. The fouling was what I would describe as dry and hard compared to previous attempts . I also had moderate leading that came out easily with the fouling as I cleaned the bore.  The loads were 34 grains of Swiss FFFG loaded by volume and trickled into the cases thru a six inch long one quarter inch I.D. tube, CCI #300 primers and unresized Starline cases.  The base of the bullet would just touch the powder collumn with this load.
  Could the leading be due to the hard fouling ? Again I am using the same size and alloy bullets in smoless loads with no leading and good accuracy.
  I need to make one correction about my loads. I found as going thru my stuff that I was not using the Whyte Leather Bullets but some bullets from Dash Caliber that were given to me. They are both BIG LUBE bullets but there are a few differences. The Dash Caliber bullets have a yellow/brown lube that almost looks like a dryed out crusted over SPG. I know thats not what it is, just a description of the appearance. The Whyte Leather Works bullets have a lube that looks just like the pictures on Dick Dastardly's web site. The lube grooves are also not as tall but are deeper, creating more bearing surface. I guess these are a 2nd generation/improved Big Lube design???
  I think I will try the Whyte Leather Works bullets with a slightly larger charge of powder as 34 grains seemed to burn dirtier.

  Any input is very much appreciated.

  A very humbled soot lord in training.

  David
 
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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2012, 08:21:19 AM »
 "I was not using the Whyte Leather Bullets but some bullets from Dash Caliber that were given to me. They are both BIG LUBE bullets but there are a few differences. The Dash Caliber bullets have a yellow/brown lube that almost looks like a dryed out crusted over SPG."

David,
I think that the lube in the Dash Caliber bullets is the problem. It may not be a b.p. lube at all.  
I would definitely suggest using the Mav D Whyte Leatherworks bullet which has the correct lube. 34-35 grs of Swiss 3F should work out just fine with the right bullet.   Personally, I would load 20 and give them a try to start with.

"Could the leading be due to the hard fouling ?" 
If the leading was just forward of the chamber, I would think no.  If it was toward the muzzle, that is a possibility.

What smokeless powder and charge wt are you using for your smokeless loads?

Good luck. Please keep us informed.

w44wcf
  
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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2012, 09:48:35 AM »
"I was not using the Whyte Leather Bullets but some bullets from Dash Caliber that were given to me. They are both BIG LUBE bullets but there are a few differences. The Dash Caliber bullets have a yellow/brown lube that almost looks like a dryed out crusted over SPG."

I have found that if I lube bullets with SPG and then put them in storage too long the lube goes grey and dirty looking.  Perhaps those bullets have been kickin' around way too long.  I haven't tested the performance of those aged bullets.

Now, when I cast a bunch I store them un-lubed in re-cycled ammo packs wrapped in sandwich bags.  I try to lube a short time before loading.
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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #45 on: Today at 12:03:43 PM »

Offline David Battersby

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2012, 02:59:19 PM »
What smokeless powder and charge wt are you using for your smokeless loads?

Good luck. Please keep us informed.    w44wcf


  
 The two loads are both with Starline Brass and Desperado Cowboy Bullets.
  #1 is 200gr bullets, published load of Trailboss and CCI#300 primers
  #2 is 240gr bullets, published load of Reloader 7 and CCI#350 primers
  I can shoot a couple hundred rounds of either and not get any Galena on cleaning patches. I use Double Tuff brushes from brownels and I know the bore gets scrubbed clean.

     I will post the next test results.

    David
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Offline Jubal Wilson

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2012, 01:16:36 AM »
     More good news for the Accurate 43-220C bullet mold. ;D My rifle is a 1873 Winchester by Uberti in 44 WCF with a 24 inch barrel. It has a Marble's tang sight and a Lyman 17A front sight with a Lee Shaver insert (see picture in previous post). Again the target was at 50 yards because of the swirling winds. The temperature was in the high 30's. I was shooting off a portable bench.
     I shot the same load as the load in a previous post but with CCI 300 primers instead of the Fed 155 mag primers. The load is 37.0 gr Swiss 1.5, CCI 300 Primers, R-P cases and the 43-220C bullet with SPG lube. This bullet is shaped like the Lyman 427098 but has bigger lube grooves and a crimping groove. I compress the powder slightly before seating the bullet. I crimp after seating.
     I believe that the accuracy is as good as I got from the Fed 155 primers and there is no hard fouling in the first part of the barrel. I shot 17 rounds (all that I had loaded) on three target (two foulers and three groups of 5) with no cleaning. The groups were 1.5 to 2 inches and the third group was the same size as the first. Cleaning was very easy, three wet patches and two dry patches and I was done. No hard fouling. W44wc suggested that the hard fouling I got previously may be from using the magnum primers and it seems to be so.
     Next I shot 19 rounds of 40.0 gr GOEX FFFg, CCI 300 primers, Starline cases and the Accurate 43-220C bullet with SPG lube. This load required 0.375 inches of compression which I consider too much. I just wanted to see what 40 grains felt like. Did not chrono this load. The load shot very accurately and clean up was the same as previously described. No cleaning, blow tubing or anything for the 19 shots and no deterioration in accuracy.
     I am really liking this bullet. ;D ;D ;D
Jubal
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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2012, 08:56:27 PM »
What smokeless powder and charge wt are you using for your smokeless loads?
Good luck. Please keep us informed.    w44wcf

 The two loads are both with Starline Brass and Desperado Cowboy Bullets.
  #1 is 200gr bullets, published load of Trailboss and CCI#300 primers
  #2 is 240gr bullets, published load of Reloader 7 and CCI#350 primers
  I can shoot a couple hundred rounds of either and not get any Galena on cleaning patches. I use Double Tuff brushes from brownels and I know the bore gets scrubbed clean.

     I will post the next test results.

    David

David,
Thank you for the info. I sent you a PM. It would be informative to test the Dash Caliber and maybe the and Big Lube bullets with your smokeless loads to see how well they grop as compared to the Desparado results. That would also set a baseline for the accuracy of your  b.p. loads.

I loaded 25 rounds of SWISS FFFG in settled 34 gr charges under the Accurate 43-210B (Fairhake improved version of the 427098) bullet (.429" diameter) bhn - 12.

Results were as follows:
Velocity – average 1,364 f.p.s. so I would not recommend exceeding 34 grs.
Fouling – light for the full length of the barrel (no hard fouling)
Lube star - yes
Leading – none
Accuracy –  last 5 shots (21-25) grouped into a little over 3” @ 100 yards.

Based on those results, you should have no trouble using SWISS FFFG and the big lube bullet with the proper lube since it holds  50% more lube than the 43-210B two lube grooved bullet.

As I mentioned I would not recommend exceeding 34 grs though because of the higher velocity generated. If you were to purchase some SWISS powder I would recommend FFG instead of FFFG. I have gotten a bit better results accuracy wise with FFG and at 36 grs. by weight, it can be compressed a bit more.

w44wcf
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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2012, 09:02:30 PM »
Jubal,
Nice to hear of your continuing great results with the Accurate 43-220C bullet and that your switch to the CCI 300 primer eliminated the bit of central hard fouling you were getting with the 155's. ;D Wow! That is quite a bit of compression with Goex. I would think with 40 grs of FFFG, you are knocking on 1,400 f.p.s.......

40 grs of SWISS 1 1/2 would require less compression and according to my records, turned up 1,338 f.p.s. average (210 gr. 43-210B) in my rifle's 24" barrel with good accuracy.

Thank you for the report.

w44wcf
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Offline David Battersby

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2012, 10:21:03 AM »
 Finally got back to the range and here are the results.

   All are: Starline cases not resized  CCI#300 primers and Whyte Leather Big Lube  "Mav D" Bullets fired from the bench with a sandbag front rest

 Load #1  34gr of Swiss FFFG trickled thru a 6in long 1/4in I.D. tube.  The accuracy is a little better and consistent. After a few fouling shots I went to a paper target at 100 yards. The groups were 6in but shots 1-5 and 41-45 were were to the same point of aim and same group size. Grease on the muzzle and I could run a dry patch thru the bore with reasonable effort. Pushing a dry patch thru the bore felt very rough to this black powder newbie, but there were no tight or hard spots.

 Load#2   32gr of Swiss FFFG trickled thru a 6in long 1/4 I.D. tube and one .060 Walters Wad.  Same results as above with 8in groups at 100 yards.

  If I attached a picture correctly you can see a likely cause of poor accuracy. The nose of the bullets are muchroomed as if pushed thru the sizer/lubricater with excessive force.
  If I can not find the Accurate bullet types in .429 or .430 from a commercial caster I may have to try my hand at casting. I really want to avoid casting as time is my most valuable commodity and is in short supply.
  I will try to get my hands on some Swiss 1.5f and try try again.
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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #50 on: Today at 12:03:43 PM »

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2012, 10:30:55 PM »
6" is not enough of a drop to get the best BP stacking. Minimum is 18" and anything over 3' is a waste. There was a test years ago on this on another forum and this was the conclusion drawn. I think if you re-do your loads you might get better results.  ;)

Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2012, 07:20:28 AM »
David,
Thank you for the range report.  The most accurate bullet for me shooting b.p. in the 44-40 with Swiss powder is  the 427098.
Montana Bullet Works offers the 427098 in .429" diameter with b.p. lube (specify at the time of order)
It is the 2nd one down this page.....
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/44_40.html

With Swiss, the lesser lube capacity is not an issue, I've run 50+ rounds with accuracy being maintained throughout and the muzzle has a lube ring.



If you send me a PM  with your address, I could send you 20 or so bullets to try to see how they would work before you ordered any.

Here's a couple of targets.....




w44wcf
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Offline David Battersby

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2012, 04:59:40 PM »
   John
      I have ordered the 42798 bullets and an RCBS design that looks similar. I will shoot both and let you know. I need to get my hands on a pound of Swiss FFG. What are your thoughts on Walters Wads under the bullet for a reduced charge of Swiss FFFG ?
Just an idea to try if I get the bullets before the powder.

      Thanks
      David
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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2012, 07:56:47 AM »
David,
I have never used a base wad but I think that since it is used as a bullet extension to compress a lesser powder charge it would work aok.

Regarding Swiss, the Back Creek Gun Shop  http://blackpowderva.com/  does not have a minimum purchase as far a I know but there is a hazmat fee of $25 per order.

Hope that it all comes together for you.

w44wcf
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Offline Kinchafoonee Kid

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2012, 09:01:32 PM »
Good evening, everyone. I have an Uberti 1873 44 WCF 30 in barrel. I load using Starline brass, cci magnum primers, 35 gr Schuetzen 2f, Accurate mould bullet in .428' no wad, using homemade DanT lube recipe.  I recently shot two CAS matches 50 rounds each, hitting all rifle targets with no misses.  No cleaning during the match.  A greasy ring on my muzzle.  I look forward to reporting some actual testing at the range, will post further experimentation.  Thanks to 44wcf for suggesting the accurate mould.

KK
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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2012, 04:36:24 PM »
Kinchafoonee Kid,
Thank you for the report. Nice shooting!  ;D ;D  
Glad to hear that the 43-215C is working well in your 30" barrel.  ;D

w44wcf
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Offline Kinchafoonee Kid

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2012, 11:38:43 PM »
W44wcf, thanks agai for your age advice and wisdom.

KK
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Offline David Battersby

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2012, 10:30:40 AM »

          W44wcf
               I know it has been a while, spring and summer are crazy busy for me, so here is an update. If I attached the image correctly you will see my best result of my first Swiss/427098 test. I was shooting at 100 yards on a warm dry day, front sandbag rest holding rear of rifle. This was the Montanna Bullet works 427098 with 2.18cc of Swiss 1.5F.  Two other loads of more powder and two with the RCBS 200gr bullet were larger groups. I did get leading just ahead of the chamber when I shot this load Saturday @ Atglen. With the match, sighting in and playing that was sixty rounds. I did clean the rifle after the first twnty rounds, just to see and feel the fouling. I noticed that when sitting while the other relay was shooting the bore near the muzzle would start to appear "dry". I began using a blow tube before and after each relay without cleaning. The dry/chalky area would moisten very quickly. ( Using the blow tube amused Jack and Gunny , ALOT ) My score was close to what I average in the Pistol Caliber game and it was alot of fun. I will get more bullets and work on fine tuning a load, as I also got a couple pounds of Swiss 2F.
  A couple things I noticed. The loads with more powder had heavier thicker fouling. Again, even the most accurate load is leading just ahead of the chamber. The leading I believe is do to bullet fit and alloy. The bullets are .429 and the bore is .429 plus the bullets are Lyman#2 Alloy, not 20-1. Just a little too small and too hard to seal the bore . At least that is my guess. 
  I will post new results, just don't hold your breath. This is the wrong time of the year for load developement. I will say this though, not matter how busy I am, silhouette matches are on the calender. Like a doctor's appointment they can not be missed.

           David

           P.S. If you talk to them, give Jack and Gunny my love!! ;D
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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2012, 08:58:20 AM »
David,
Thank you for the range report.  Glad to see that you are making good progress!   
Looks like the majority of the bullets impacted in 3" with almost all in 4" @ 100.  ;D ;D

If the bullets are 15 BHN as advertised and they were .002" over groove diameter, the throat leading should cease.

My normal b.p. bullets are 10-12 bhn but I have fired 16 BHN bullets that were .002" over groove and they shot very well with no leading. ;D

I could "bump up" some of your bullets to .431" if you send me some.  I'll send you an email about that.

Hopefully, I'll see Sixgun & Gunny at the Regional Cowboy Silhouette Championship in Bradford.......

w44wcf

 
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Offline David Battersby

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Black Powder in the 44-40
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2012, 08:19:56 AM »
    
    John
       Again, summer is a crazy busy time for me . Here is an update.
       The attached photo is of two bullet designs I just received. They are at bore diameter as the last bullets tried , BUT are cast with a 30-to-1 alloy . They are from Mt Badly Bullets. They are not listed on the web site but are available. I e-mailed them and as advertised Frank called me back and let me know what they had and could do. If the bullets are half as good as their customer service then X-rings are in my future.  I am going to load some trial ammo with Swiss 1.5F and 2F.  On the Lyman 427098 I will try crimping lightly just ahead of the first driving band. The idea is to have the bullet seated on the powder and have a crimp that will not distort the bullet in any way.  I tried seating the bullet with the first drive band flush with the case mouth, but the O.A.L. is too long for my rifle. I will post a range report when I get the time to go to the range.

                David

P.S. As much as I wanted too there was no way to make the Eastern Regional match. Next year I will plan for it much sooner.
John Moses Browning and Teddy Roosevelt, we need you again !
In the days of old when men were bold and a quarter was still worth a dime.

 

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