To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question

[Tornado]

A simple rule change to Working Cowboy could cover alot of the issues.  Instead of requiring 1 pistol and 1 rifle(15 shots) have the rules state that Working Cowboy is a 15 shot class and allow on-the-clock reloads.  Someone with just 1 or 2  pistols can play and just reload.  Someone could also shoot 3 pistols and be competitive.  I don't know if only 1 rifle and reloading would be a good idea (too fast), state that at least one gun shall be a pistol.  1 pistol and 1 rifle would still be the best way but this makes this class an entry level class, a pistoleer class and rifle/ pistol class.  This would also add lots of variety and be period correct. 
Someone could buy 3 cap and ball revolvers for less than $600 and be competitive or spend $350 on used pistol and just have fun. 

[Cliff Fendley]

I guess after thinking about it the most puzzling part of NCOWS class structuring that I noticed when joining was why are all the less historically correct classes shooting 4 guns divided up in different hand holds and powder when working cowboy is all lumped together.

I suppose one could argue the originals is the one handed black powder two gun class so my argument is this. If the two gun classes are only divided into open or traditional why cant the other classes do the same thing?

The pistoleer class (which appeals to me very much), using older guns in a traditional method you are back to needing four guns.

The argument is we need to keep the class numbers to a limit and I agree, you can't have a class for everyone. Problem is that rule only applies if you want to be historically correct in an organization that is supposed to be striving for authenticity.

Basically as long as you are willing to carry around and shoot an arsenal of guns we have a special class just for you, if you want to be more authentic well just try and fit in.

Yep that's sounds right for an organization that is supposed to be thriving for authenticity.

[St. George]

Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2011, 02:11:39 pm »     

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There really doesn't need to be an entry-level class - not when 'Working Cowboy' uses the most basic of weaponry and such.

Weapons and leather-wise, it's the most affordable - and with little work, pretty much anyone who wants to put in the effort can look appropriate to the era.

Anything beyond that is dependant upon the individual's personal interest, and we can always offer guidance in how to find and modify clothing to fit the Impression.

As to pulling in young shooters - probably won't happen, unless they're already historically-minded.

The folks who actively shoot C&WAS are those who remember the romance of the TV Westerns and the oaters of the '50's and '60's - and those really don't have hollywood's support - though folks do say they like them.

I suspect more are viewed via 'Netflix' than on the Silver Screen.

Kids today dream differently and Gene and Roy aren't even close to their screen.

Posse-level shoots can do what they like - National-level shoots are (and should be) different - there should be an expected standard that isn't as important locally.

To reiterate:

If we're not careful, we'll be known as:

 'NCOWS - A Class Outfit, Where Everyone Has Their Own Class'...

So long as we continue to play to our strength of greater fidelity towards the 'real' Old West, and not the 'reel' or 'IPSC With Hats', or the 'SASS-Lite' versions, we'll attract like-minded folks, and those will fill our ranks.

Ride for the Brand!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Advertising]

[Tjackstephens]

St. George, You are so correct. Tj

[jefff]

yes i think we do need to be careful about adding classes or changing structure that is why i suggested doing it on a posse level for a year to test it out before making recomendations to congress.with all the posses willing to try this we are more apt to find a workable solution without distressing the membership.jefff

[bowiemaker]

New shooters aren't necessarily young shooters. I didn't get into it until my mid-50s but the cost was still an issue.

[Tjackstephens]

I looked at the number of folks that have voted on this issue here on CAS City, 50 and of those 2 don't care. Not much of a count and many do not want a change. SASS has gone after the young by making their shoots speed, weak loads, slick guns, and close targets. Sure they feel that to stay alive they must get the young folks. I guess that is what this is all about, we need the young folks too. However what we have going for us is HISTORY.  Yes we like to shoot and love our guns too, but what brings us and will continue to bring folks to us is the love of the old west, the history of the old west. The people that join NCOWS are and always will be the ones that love that history. The clothes, leather, weapons, and the people from that time period. I don't think class changes will help one bit.
We already have the Working Cowboy class, that's the best thing we have going for us. The people that I speak for have only asked for one thing, a two handgun and one rifle. They like working cowboy, but would like to shoot two handguns, they don't want to shoot a shotgun.
I agree with Jeff, table it this year and let each posse try the different classes on a local and monthly matches. Tj

[Bow View Haymaker]

This is a combination of SASS?NCOWS and GAF classes we used for a while at CRC.

4 gun classes:
_____  Two hand / strong hand = Traditional, Shootists, Duelists.
_____  A gun for each hand = Double Duelist, Gunfighter.   
_____  Smoke makers  = Frontier Cartridge, Cap-n-ball.
No shotgun classes:
_____  Range detective = 2 handguns and rifle.
_____  Rifleman = 2, 10 round pistol caliber rifles.
_____  Josey Whales = handguns, no rifle.
2 gun classes: 
_____  Mil-spec repeater, Militia = I handgun and rifle caliber repeater.
_____  Mil-spec single shot, Buffalo Scout, Plainsman = 1 handgun and single shot rifle.
_____  Scout, Working Cowboy = 1 handgun and pistol caliber repeating rifle.
_____  Forager, = shotugn and 1 handgun.

[bowiemaker]

A simple rule change to Working Cowboy could cover alot of the issues.  Instead of requiring 1 pistol and 1 rifle(15 shots) have the rules state that Working Cowboy is a 15 shot class and allow on-the-clock reloads.  Someone with just 1 or 2  pistols can play and just reload.  Someone could also shoot 3 pistols and be competitive.  I don't know if only 1 rifle and reloading would be a good idea (too fast), state that at least one gun shall be a pistol.  1 pistol and 1 rifle would still be the best way but this makes this class an entry level class, a pistoleer class and rifle/ pistol class.  This would also add lots of variety and be period correct. 
Someone could buy 3 cap and ball revolvers for less than $600 and be competitive or spend $350 on used pistol and just have fun. 

I don't know about other posses but at JCR it would be a real challenge to hit our rifle targets with a pistol.

[joec]

I don't know about other posses but at JCR it would be a real challenge to hit our rifle targets with a pistol.

Heck some of us have a problem hitting the pistol targets with a pistol. 

[Cole Bluesteele]

First of all, I believe it would be best if we develop a class structure that we can ask the posses to try out for a year before we make any permanent changes.

At the Berger Sharpshooters we are now offering the following classes:

Working Cowboy, One pistol & one rifle
Two Pistols and one rifle
One pistol & one shotgun
Two pistols, one rifle & one shotgun

Each of the above will be split into BP Duelist, Smokeless Duelist and Open (two handed grip and any powder)

We will also offer Pistoleer as it is now.

Junior and Senior classes are one pistol and one rifle classes.

As most of our shooters use smokeless it was unfair to lump the duelists into an Open class. Most likely this would cost us the smokelss Duelist shooters.  As they do not want to compete against two handed shooters and are unwilling to load BP rounds just  to be able to compete against other Duelists.

These class divisions in no way impact our historical requirements.

We feel they may encourage other WAS participants to try NCOWS.  It is our hope that will recruit new members, with
minimal impact to our existing shooters.  To date some of our WC's have moved to the 2 pistol & Rifle class, as have some 4 gun shooters.

Regarding "too Many classes"  That really depends on the number of NCOWS members.  If we had 400 shooters at a match I do not feel that the above would be too many classes.  I guess we need to decide if we want to have the attitude "if we build it they will come"  or just keep doing what we have always done.  Just remember " If you always do what you have always done you will always get what you always got."

If we really want NCOWS to grow maybe we need to research this issue and then decide.

[Books OToole]

I don't know about other posses but at JCR it would be a real challenge to hit our rifle targets with a pistol.

At the KVC it is a challenge to hit rifle targets with a rifle.

Books

[Books OToole]

At the Berger Sharpshooters we are now offering the following classes:

Working Cowboy, One pistol & one rifle
Two Pistols and one rifle
One pistol & one shotgun
Two pistols, one rifle & one shotgun

Each of the above will be split into BP Duelist, Smokeless Duelist and Open (two handed grip and any powder)

We will also offer Pistoleer as it is now.

Junior and Senior classes are one pistol and one rifle classes.

Add the Originals class and I like it.

Books

[Trap]

   Isn't the challenge what it's all about?

[John Smith]

Heck some of us have a problem hitting the pistol targets with a pistol. 

That would be me, my motto is, "I may be slow, but I'm highly inaccurate".

[Cole Bluesteele]

Books,

The Originals class is offered.  I omitted it because we are still working on having three members to participate.  Tascosa Joe is probably ready.  Maybe even Pancho.  Tom jack and i are still getting stuff together.

Ted 

[Books OToole]

Books,

The Originals class is offered.  I omitted it because we are still working on having three members to participate.  Tascosa Joe is probably ready.  Maybe even Pancho.  Tom jack and i are still getting stuff together.

Ted 

I am glad to hear that.  It seems that there is a movement afoot to eliminate the Originals class.  With 14 shooters who have already had their packet approved and seven more working on it, it is a much larger group than precieved.

Like the other classes, shooters who have shot Originals do not always shoot Originals.

Books

[Quick Fire]

Cole, and all,

     I don't post very often, but it seems to me that NCOWS has about the best rule that can be had, when a Posse can offer whatever classes it wants as long as they stay within the parameters of NCOWS rules and regulations. Why would we want to change this. Is it just for one shoot,(The Nationals)? Our club, The Blue River Regulators, has tried several new catagories over the last few years. I would hate to see it changed where we can no longer do this. Just my two cents worth.

                                           

Quick Fire

[Cole Bluesteele]

QF,

I do not think anyone is considering eliminating the ability of individual posses to offer unique classes at their matches.  i know I am not.  This restructuring if successful would only create the classes that are required at the national and regional level.

Ted

[Civil War Jack]

I agree, what I have been discussing is for the National Shoot level, to add one class- a pistols only class.  I agree with authenticity, and an all pistol class can be documented.  Wish to reiterate that a class should be offered for people that is affordable, historically accurate, and will be available for persons wishing to compete on the national level that due to permanent or temporary health issues can not at the present time only because of inability to shoot a rifle/shotgun.  This would include persons with a broken arm, sprained wrist, stroke issues involving on side of the body, shoulder problems, etc.  The way it is now, you can not participate on a competitive level at the National Shoot with any of these problems if unable to shoot rifle/shotgun.  I further feel it should be open to the general public as well as persons with "physical limitations" as listed in our bylaws.  This is called competition, which is the purpose of having the National Shoot to start with.  As far as shooting rifle targets with a pistol and everyone else is doing the same thing in the class-that is competition and can only blame myself for misses but not for missing a shoot to start with because I did not have a class to shoot in.  Besides it could only involve the pistol targets set up for the two pistol classes that are already set up for the other classes.  This would not require any additional targets to set for pistol only class.  This could be addressed by the match director.  Remember we are all getting older and could be us later in life.