Author Topic: Early Ammunition Advertisement (Read 7366 times)

Driftwood Johnson · « **Reply #1 on:** September 30, 2011, 02:53:55 PM »

Howdy

I notice the ad says the Smokeless 44 cartridges are for rifles only.

Do you have a date for the ad?

Thanks.

w44wcf · « **Reply #2 on:** October 02, 2011, 07:36:51 AM »

DJ,
It is from an 1896 Winchester catalog. Smokeless W.R.A. CO. cartridges became available in 1895. Interestingly, the same notation is not on the .38 W.C.F. smokeless cartridge. .45 Colt smokeless ammunition was also in the catalog with no warnings about not using it in b.p. revolvers.

In checking a bit further in history, Winchester dropped the catalog notation "For Rifles Only" and 44 W.C.F. smokeless cartridge catalog illustrations and boxes indicated the ammunition could be used in revolvers. Most likely further testing indicated that the low pressure smokeless powder they used (DuPont No 2 bulk smokeless and later L&R Sharpshooter) developed pressures no greater than b.p. and the notation was dropped. Catalog velocity for the standard cartridge remained the same from 1896 and beyond.

When W.H.V. (Winchester High Velocity) cartridges were introduced in 1903 for the 1892 Winchester Rifle, cartridge boxes indicated that they were not for use in '73 rifles nor pistols.

w44wcf

Advertising · « **Reply #3 on:** **Today** at 01:12:54 PM »

Driftwood Johnson · « **Reply #3 on:** October 06, 2011, 01:41:39 PM »

Great, thanks for the update.

Do you have information on the pressure curves of those early Smokeless powders? Not just the amplitude of the curve, but the duration too?

Thanks

w44wcf · « **Reply #4 on:** October 08, 2011, 08:25:09 AM »

DJ,
It is known that the early 44 W.C.F. / .44-40 smokeless powder used by the factories was DuPont #2 Bulk Smokeless and 17 grs was the charge which filled the capacity of the case. H4227 produces pretty much the same velocity (1,300 f.p.s.) at the same 17 gr charge weight, so the burning rate between the two powders would be similar.

Unfortunately, I have never seen any data on the pressure and duration of the DuPont powder but back in 2004, I had an aquaintance that worked in the Hodgdon's ballistis lab and he pressure tested some 44-40 ammo that I had given him. The loading was 200 gr cast bullet / 17 / 4227.

Pressure wise, it generated around 14,000 PSI. The early b.p. load was said to generate around 15,000 PSI. I did not receive any pressure traces but I would expect it to be similar to the graph below which compares 4759, a powder with a burning rate pretty much identical to H4227 (and to DuPont #2), to BP and Trailboss. Note the high pressure of Trailboss (33,000+ cup !).

w44wcf

Tascosa Joe · « **Reply #5 on:** October 17, 2011, 09:53:33 AM »

The Sears 1895 Catalog advertises 38 WCF Smoleless but not 44 WCF. Go figure?

w44wcf · « **Reply #6 on:** October 17, 2011, 11:03:12 AM »

Joe,
The reason may well be that 38 WCF smokeless ammo introduction by Winchester happened in late 1894. The 44 WCF came along in early mid 1895.

w44wcf

Tascosa Joe · « **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2011, 01:41:36 PM »

Thanks for that info on the date.

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