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Author Topic: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster  (Read 45942 times)

Offline Niederlander

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2012, 09:53:45 pm »
Works for me, Jack!  I shoot at them fairly regularly with various .50-70's and so far they've held up well.  They do bend after a while, though!
"There go those Nebraskans, and all hell couldn't stop them!"

Offline pony express

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2012, 10:49:16 pm »
That load should only be a little faster than a 45-70-500 rifle load. Bullets were cast pretty hard for them too, 12 to 1!!!

Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #77 on: July 04, 2012, 09:54:42 am »
If Command wishes to 'test' these targets, I could (.... purely as a 'public service', of course ....) load some .577/.450 Martin-Henry cartridges to the full War Department specifications set out in the List of Changes in War Materiel and of Patterns of Military Stores, as opposed to the relatively wimpy 'GAF-spec' cartridges I normally shoot:



 ;D

That pic was extremely helpful. Look at the size of that lube wad! No wonder my Martini's foul so badly I can't get more than a few shots in a group. My first 3 are often touching at 100 yards but after that the barrel is fouled I sometimes have trouble hitting the backstop!
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Online RattlesnakeJack

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #78 on: July 04, 2012, 11:19:57 am »
That pic was extremely helpful. Look at the size of that lube wad! No wonder my Martini's foul so badly I can't get more than a few shots in a group. My first 3 are often touching at 100 yards but after that the barrel is fouled I sometimes have trouble hitting the backstop!

Yes, plentiful BP-compatable lube is very important with the Martini-Henry .....  especially with these original loads, which had unlubricated paper-patched bullets.

Note the configuration of the lube wad, as well - deep cavity in front and sandwiched between card wads - to pretty much ensure that it would flare out and be deposited along the bore ....  Of course, that particular cartridge was adopted specifically for service in the very arid climate of Egypt.

The lube wad wasn't quite so big in the earlier Marks of Martini-Henry cartridges (with their distinctive coiled sheet brass composite cases) but still quite substantial -

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
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Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #79 on: July 04, 2012, 02:39:26 pm »
Even that lighter lube wad would be much more tham my bullet carries.
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Online RattlesnakeJack

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #80 on: July 04, 2012, 03:16:05 pm »
In addition to whatever lube the grease grooves of the bullet carry, I (like many other shooters of the Martini) use "grease cookies" in my loads for enhanced lubrication .....

Melt a shallow layer (e.g. 1/8" or 3/16") of suitable lube in a flat, shallow pan, let it set and then cut out discs of the lube with an appropriate sized punch - an old cartridge case with the base cut off works well for this.  Load with a close-fitting card wad over the powder, followed by the lube wad, then another card wad.  Milk carton material works nicely for the card wads, as it is impermeable to the grease and keeps it from contaminating the powder or sticking to the base of the bullet .....

For the past several years I have been making my own black powder lube - which looks and performs very much like SPG - by melting together roughly equal parts of beeswax and olive oil, mixing well and then letting it set up. The proportions of the two ingredients can be varied to make the finished product harder or softer, as desired.

If you are a Martini-Henry shooter - or have an interest in any of the other historic British firearms, for that matter - you should check into British Militaria Forums, where I am a moderator.  The name is rather deceiving: these forums are almost exclusively dedicated to collecting and shooting Victorian-era (and earlier) British firearms ..... 
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #81 on: July 05, 2012, 06:19:09 am »
Congratulations to Lt. Col. Kit Peak Kid. Official registant number 10.
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
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Online Delmonico

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #82 on: July 05, 2012, 09:45:32 am »
Well unless it hails bad before the muster it looks like we will have plenty of fresh green beans at one of the meals. ;D
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Offline Gripmaker

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #83 on: July 05, 2012, 11:03:37 am »
AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  OK, now that I have calmed down a bit.  It is with deep regret and frustration that I must withdraw from this year's Dept. of the Missouri Muster.  This is due to physical and financial reasons (doctor's deep concern about another case of heat exhaustion...first one care of Uncle Sugar while in his emply when I was younger...and my wife's refusal to pay resultant medical charges should this happen again).  She also made such comments as: stupid, bone-headed, a typical Little and "What am I supposed to do with all these guns if something happens?"  I assure you all that these are pointless concerns but I have chosen to acquiesce for this one time.  All this after spending valuable time with Bro. Bob sighting in my 66 YallerBoy at NRA center in NM last month.   
     As your Chaplain, I shall be praying for your safety and that you all have a wonderful time next week-end. God Bless and shoot safe.

LTC Montgomery Little, Senior Chaplain, GAF

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #84 on: July 05, 2012, 11:15:00 am »
My friend, to be truthful that has me concerned a bit also, I will also be traveling with out my Corpsman because he's having to much trouble with the heat to be able to ride everyone elses butt about the heat. 

I am very sorry that you will not be there though.
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Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Online RattlesnakeJack

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #85 on: July 05, 2012, 11:33:33 am »
Gripmaker:

That is bad news!  I was looking forward to seeing you again ....   :'(

As a visitor from cooler climes, I assume that a cooler filled with Gatorade or the like may be advisable. 

Mind you, the area around Medicine Hat is classed as "semi-desert', and we frequently get summer temperatures approaching - or even exceeding - 100 degrees ....   :P 
(However, I usually avoid running around a lot at such times!  ;) )
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
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Offline Guns Garrett

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #86 on: July 05, 2012, 05:12:10 pm »
@ Rattlesnake ("Mr.Martini"):
  I have been attempting to reload M-H using CBC brass (reformed 24g shotshells - very thin brass), but cannot get LESS than 100 grains FG, filled to the bottom of the neck.  I KNOW I dont want filler or wadding below the shoulder...need I try using a "mix" of cream o' wheat with my black to increase the bulk?  Any problems with it separating/settling after extended storage or being shaken/jostled around?

I am also "Lucky" enough to have obtained 60 rounds of loaded "short chamber Boxer Henry point 4 5 calibre" in good Jamison brass (from Buffalo Arms).  Ironically, the difference in prices of loaded cartridges and empty brass, it is actually more economical to buy it already loaded.  I will probably have to get at least 40-50 more rounds for the Muster in October - can't make it to Nebr. this month....
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Offline Bow View Haymaker

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #87 on: July 05, 2012, 05:25:58 pm »
You will be missed Captain Little.  I was actually looking forward to one of your sermons.  Take care of yourself,  we will forge on without you.  The summer heat is nothing to trifle with.  I just hope to find Nebraska a bit cooler than Arizona.
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Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #88 on: July 05, 2012, 06:43:12 pm »
In addition to whatever lube the grease grooves of the bullet carry, I (like many other shooters of the Martini) use "grease cookies" in my loads for enhanced lubrication .....

Melt a shallow layer (e.g. 1/8" or 3/16") of suitable lube in a flat, shallow pan, let it set and then cut out discs of the lube with an appropriate sized punch - an old cartridge case with the base cut off works well for this.  Load with a close-fitting card wad over the powder, followed by the lube wad, then another card wad.  Milk carton material works nicely for the card wads, as it is impermeable to the grease and keeps it from contaminating the powder or sticking to the base of the bullet .....

For the past several years I have been making my own black powder lube - which looks and performs very much like SPG - by melting together roughly equal parts of beeswax and olive oil, mixing well and then letting it set up. The proportions of the two ingredients can be varied to make the finished product harder or softer, as desired.

If you are a Martini-Henry shooter - or have an interest in any of the other historic British firearms, for that matter - you should check into British Militaria Forums, where I am a moderator.  The name is rather deceiving: these forums are almost exclusively dedicated to collecting and shooting Victorian-era (and earlier) British firearms ..... 
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/

Thanks for the tips.
As it happens I am on the British Militaria Forum. I post as Doug Strong. That is where I first saw your posts.
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Online RattlesnakeJack

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #89 on: July 05, 2012, 09:15:28 pm »
..... I have been attempting to reload M-H using CBC brass (reformed 24g shotshells - very thin brass), but cannot get LESS than 100 grains FG, filled to the bottom of the neck. .....

Dave:

That, unfortunately, is one of the most significant problems with these admittedly economical CBC-based cases .... the other difficulty, in my view, is their potential weakness and/or likely short lifespan ..... being both thin-walled and semi-balloonhead as they are.

For those reasons, coupled with the wish to avoid the considerable extra hassle of forming the necessary bottleneck, I have no .577-450 cases formed from CBC brass.  CBC brass is much better suited for forming straight-walled .577 Snider-Enfield cases, and I have a fair number of such cases made from CBC brass.

Frankly, I think you'd be better off getting a sufficient number of Jamieson case for the Martini, and hold the CBC cases in reserve .... or even put a Snider on your "wish list" and blow the CBC cases back out for use in that!

However, this wonderfully sage advice is of absolutely no help in resolving your immediate problem, is it?   ::)

To be honest, I often use a filler extending below the shoulder in various bottleneck cases .... including the Martin-Henry .... but for several years now have used only "50/50 active filler" on top of a reduced black powder charge, as discussed on the British Militaria Forums.  There has been some suggestion of late that this mix can separate into its constituent parts, and "DoubleD" recently indicated there that some loads made with 50/50 filler which were pulled apart showed such separation.  However, I am of the view that this problem will not occur provided the filler is mixed using a suitable inactive component and that the powder charge and filler are compressed by the bullet during loading (just as a straight black powder charge should be compressed) .... and that is what I always do.  I too have pulled apart some of my cartridges loaded in this fashion, following a considerable passage of time, and have noted no such separation.  

Rather than cream of wheat, I have almost always used a brand of quite coarse-ground corn meal readily available here .... the particles of which are angular, and similar in size to 2F powder.  I avoid the use of finer-ground stuff which is also available (closer to flour in appearance) and I believe that makes the difference .... especially since, in his recent post, "DD" specifically commented on the differential in grain size making it understandable that the two components would separate.  He, or someone else, also mentioned how difficult it was to keep their loose 50/50 filler evenly mixed in its container before putting it into the cartridge cases .... but that has never been a problem with my mixture, either.)

The theory behind the use of a 50/50 mix as a filler (without empirical proof, so far as I know) is that the black powder mixed throughout the filler burns when the main powder charge goes off and thus prevents the danger posed by the filler possibly "slugging up" in the neck of the case.  

On the issue of calculating the powder charge and quantity of 50/50 mix to use, the "conventional wisdom" on British Militaria Forums has been that the full quantity of black powder contained in the 50/50 mix should be factored into the "total powder charge".  However, I personally don't think that it should count on a straight 1:1 basis, since its "contribution" to the effect of the powder charge must be compromised somewhat by being mixed with an equal volume of inert material.

Assuming for illustrative purposes, that the volumetric equivalent of 90 grains black powder constitutes a "full charge" which will be suitably compressed by whatever bullet/wad/grease cookie combination is being used, one wants to build a column of straight black powder, topped by the 50/50 mix, which will fill exactly the same volume in the case.  (For practical purposes, of course, one measures both the straight black powder and the 50/50 mix using the same "grains by volume" type of measure.)

Although I honestly can't say where it comes from, another "gut feeling" I have is that it seems advisable to avoid using a volume of the 50/50 filler equal to (or greater than) the volume of the powder charge.  Intuition somehow tells me that the volume of the black powder charge should always be somewhat greater than the volume of even an "active" filler going on top of it.

Working with my suggested example based on "90 grains by volume", the conventional "simple" view would hold that a charge of 50 grains (volume measure) of black powder, topped by 40 grains (volume measure) of 50/50 mix should be viewed as the equivalent of a 70 grain charge of straight black powder - i.e. adding the 50 grain powder charge and the 20 grains of powder in that volume of 50/50 filler.   In my view, however, the 'effective contribution' of the powder in the filler mix will undoubtedly be somewhat reduced.  

In practical terms, however, a bit of experimentation (such as always seems necessary in developing optimal black powder loads anyway) should soon give you a combination that works for you.  (For what it is worth, my reduced Martini-Henry load for GAF shooting, using soft-cast 405 grain unsized .457"/.458'" bullets intended for the .45-70, has been precisely what I mention above - i.e. 50 grains (volume) powder topped by 40 grains (volume) of 50/50 mix.  With the more voluminous CBC cases, in order to get the top of the filler right up into the neck, you might have to go with something like 55 grains powder topped by 45 grains 50/50 mix .... or perhaps even a bit more of each.

Now that I have you totally confused ..... what the heck are you doing trespassing on my "British Empire" turf, anyway?   ???   :'(   ;)
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Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Niederlander

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2012, 07:38:04 am »
Jack, it makes me glad I shoot a .50-70 (or two!)  It seems much less complicated!
"There go those Nebraskans, and all hell couldn't stop them!"

Online RattlesnakeJack

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #91 on: July 06, 2012, 11:44:47 am »
For Queen and Empire, a man must do what he must do!    ;D

Mind you, the only reason I have to go to all that trouble is to download to maximum GAF specs! I am in the process of loading a batch of "full house" Martini-Henry cartridges - 90 grains of powder and a 480 grain bullet - nowhere near as much fussing necessary with those ....   ::)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Online Delmonico

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #92 on: July 06, 2012, 12:12:53 pm »
Looks like we will perhaps get a small break from the heat:

http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/Sargent+NE+USNE0432:1:US

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Online RattlesnakeJack

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #93 on: July 06, 2012, 12:51:27 pm »
YIKES!  Are you saying that 93 degrees is a "break from the heat???  ???

I guess khaki drill field dress will be the order of the day for the entire shoot.  Will likely leave anything made of wool at home, so as to avoid any temptation  ....   ::)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Online Delmonico

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #94 on: July 06, 2012, 01:10:11 pm »
10 degrees is better than nothing.
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Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline pony express

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #95 on: July 06, 2012, 06:28:04 pm »
YIKES!  Are you saying that 93 degrees is a "break from the heat???  ???

I guess khaki drill field dress will be the order of the day for the entire shoot.  Will likely leave anything made of wool at home, so as to avoid any temptation  ....   ::)
Not sure about Nebraska, but here in Missouri it's been over 100 about every day for the last week, or maybe 10 days. 104 today. Any unwatered grass is brown, some trees are dropping leaves already. About 1/4 or 1/3 of the corn across from my house is brown and dead. But there's supposed to be a break in the weather this weekend, maybe some rain and low 90's.

Offline G.W. Strong

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #96 on: July 06, 2012, 06:58:54 pm »
Chicago is looking the same. 103 today.
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Online Dusty Tagalon

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #97 on: July 06, 2012, 08:16:40 pm »
Jerry;What is the schedule, side matches, & main match?

Brian

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #98 on: July 06, 2012, 10:13:57 pm »
Side matches on Friday, probably just the EEM, maybe a long range pistol. Friday afternoon we'll sight in for the long range match (which is now included in computations for the Department Champion). Main match and Long Range friday. Finish any unfinished stages Sunday morning. Why, is there a chance you'll be able to come? :o

BTW When I got in the pickup this afternoon to go to Cambridge for the lodge poles for my Teepee, the thermometer showed 108. 90 would feel like a nice cool down. The forecast for the next few days is the low 80's but warming back up to around 90 by the weekend. :-\
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Re: 2012 Department of the Missouri Muster
« Reply #99 on: July 07, 2012, 03:21:08 pm »
Kind of a stretch, if I could get off at noon Friday, I could get in the area by 10:00PM, shoot main match Saturday, the drive back on Sunday. Not a relaxing schedule.

Brian

 

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