Author Topic: S&W American early variations  (Read 7655 times)

Offline MMA10mm

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S&W American early variations
« on: July 12, 2011, 05:46:11 pm »
I know we've discussed it before, but it's been awhile, so I thought I'd bring it up again:

Any chance a repro of the 1st or second variation American will come out?  (or for that matter, a first-variation Russian?). It's why I'm waiting to buy... (hint, hint to Cimmaron, Taylor's, etc. - Call Uberti!)  :D

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 06:22:35 pm »
I used to think so, however CAS peaked circa. 2000 and is in decline actually. Once you factor in that there is very little market for authentic, i.e., non-Gamer, guns these days I am not optimistic. Then again, Cimarron really surprised me with the Type II Richards so who knows. Abilene would be the man to know as he's in the front "trench" of CAS. I do know that Mr. Harvey of Cimarron owns a very famous 1st Model American, Texas Jack's I believe. Sooooooooo......  ;D ;)

Offline Abilene

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 11:02:49 pm »
I've been busy with my other job and haven't been to Cimarron since Shot Show, so I can't say if there have been any developments as far as an American goes.  A year or so ago when I mentioned it to Mike he said he had previously asked Uberti to make it but they kind of do what they want.  So who knows. 

Yeah FCK, Mike does own Texas Jack Omohundro's American.  It was on loan to the NRA museum a last year but I think it's back in his safe now.

I've seen some folks mention Uberti being pretty good about answering emails, so perhaps a query to them might give some info?

Offline Forty Rod

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 09:59:08 am »
Probably not ever gonna happen.  I may have to start saving my money for originals.
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Offline Forty Rod

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2011, 09:59:25 am »
I'll take a pair of 1st Model Russians with 8" barrels in .44 Russian.  I'd prefer them plated, but will take blued if that's all I can get.

I've been beating this drum since 1990 with no results.
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Offline St. George

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2011, 10:22:11 am »
The Conversions weren't much of a stretch - manufacturing-wise.

However, tooling for something with as limited appeal as an 'American' isn't likely to happen, when the various 'Schofield' revolvers are in good supply.

I have to agree with Fox Creek Kid - C&WAS has peaked, and with it, the inclination of manufacturers to supply variants and new weaponry, since that already small market is shrinking as the C&WAS participants age.

Originals will always rise in value - clones won't - so saving up for them's a good idea.

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« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 10:48:30 am by St. George »
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Offline Forty Rod

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 11:09:11 am »
And yet I can buy a "transitional" Henry with only a meager handful of originals known to exist, LeMats, Starrs, Rogers and Spencers, and an amazing array of other little known and fantasy nonsense.

It seems that the Schofields could be converted or modified slightly without much effort to offer a model that sold better than any of the above listed guns.  Even the 3rd Russian that was being made for a spell would be a fair base for a 1st Model, at least in external appearance.
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Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2011, 08:43:29 am »
Howdy

I too doubt it will ever happen. I too am saving up for originals. I have a double whammy against me, because the in state where I reside, no single action revolver other than a Ruger is legal for sale, because of restrictive gun laws. Nothing other than a Ruger will pass a drop test. So I have bought all my original S&W Top Breaks on my C&R license. There is an origiinal Schofield on auction not too far from here in a few weeks that I might actually be able to afford. Unfortunately, I have to be out of town that day. But I am keeping my eyes open for affordable originals.
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Offline MMA10mm

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2011, 09:55:02 pm »
And yet I can buy a "transitional" Henry with only a meager handful of originals known to exist, LeMats, Starrs, Rogers and Spencers, and an amazing array of other little known and fantasy nonsense.

It seems that the Schofields could be converted or modified slightly without much effort to offer a model that sold better than any of the above listed guns.  Even the 3rd Russian that was being made for a spell would be a fair base for a 1st Model, at least in external appearance.

I gotta agree with Forty Rod.  The barrel latch system from the Russian repros would be close enough for me, and the Schofield frame shape (without the Ordinetz hump) would work.  I don't care if the trigger pin reinforcement boss is there or not, frankly.  I don't want something so perfectly copied it would fool a museum.  I just want a shootin iron that matches up on the big details, so I can go shoot it!  Internal parts don't need changed, etc.  Uberti already makes 85+% of the gun... :-\

Offline RickB

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 01:32:45 am »
Would you consider the beretta laramie (sp?) To be kinda what you are looking for?
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Offline Forty Rod

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2011, 11:04:02 am »
Yeah, except it isn't the same at all. 

It's a 3rd Russian, complete with a built-in brush hook, a butt ugly hump on its back and a swoopy semi-round butt grip configuration.

Lengthen the barrel to 8" and fit it to a Scofield frame and your closer.....but still no cigar.
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Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 12:24:07 pm »
Howdy

The Beretta Laramie is a replica of the S&W New Model Number Three.





As for the configuration of the butt and the knuckle on the top of the grip, that's the way the New Model #3 was. Whether you like it or not, and I do, it was very popular with target shooters of the 1880s and 1890s. The problem with the Laramie is it has an adjustable rear sight. Not sure what SASS's take on that is.
That’s bad business! How long do you think I’d stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he’d pay me that much to stop robbing him, I’d stop robbing him.

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Offline Trailrider

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 04:59:11 pm »
SASS used to classify the Laramie in "Modern" class due to the adjustable sight.  But they have combined Modern and Traditional, so I would guess the Laramie would be okay for most of the "regular" classes, except maybe "Classic Cowboy".  The main problem I've had with the Laramie I bought was that it shot about 8 inches high at 25 yds, and the tallest front siight they offered didn't solve the problem.  Due to time constraints I haven't messed with it.  As with the original, the Laramie has a rebounding hammer, making it one of the few "sixguns" moderately safe to carry with all six chambers loaded.  OTOH, SASS rules and probably prudence would still make it better to carry with an empty under the hammer.
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Offline MMA10mm

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 05:33:35 pm »
Would you consider the beretta laramie (sp?) To be kinda what you are looking for?

Unfortunately, no, since it's a new model copy its about 10 years too new, but thanks for thinking of options which I hadn't!  :)

When I say it needs to match on the big things, that backstrap shape is one of the biggest.  The latch is  another (on the frame - not a Schofield), it needs to be single action only, square-butt grip. 

No S&W No.3 Americans at auction today...

Offline Forty Rod

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2011, 07:28:30 pm »
And the longer ejector housing.
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Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2011, 11:03:33 pm »
Quote
The main problem I've had with the Laramie I bought was that it shot about 8 inches high at 25 yds, and the tallest front siight they offered didn't solve the problem.  Due to time constraints I haven't messed with it.

Howdy Trailrider

The originals shot high too. Which I don't quite understand, since they were prized as target pistols, but they shot high. I read in one of Mike Venturino's books that all the Smiths built on the #3 frame shot high. Sure enough, when I first shot my New Model #3, it shot really high too. about 6 inches high at normal CAS distance, around 10 yards. This was with a full case of FFg Black Powder and a 200 grain bullet in a 44 Russian case. I monkeyed around a little bit with a lighter load, trying to drop the point of impact, but there was not much leeway to put less powder into the case. So I just try to remember to aim low.

My DA44 shoots right on target but that is because at some point somebody replaced the front sight with a much taller one than the original.

Here is the sight that was on the gun when I bought it.



Compare that to the original sights on these two.



Since the sight on mine was not original anyway, I had Happy Trails replace it with an antique dime set at the same height as the sight that was on it when I bought it. Still shoots to point of aim with the new front sight.



That’s bad business! How long do you think I’d stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he’d pay me that much to stop robbing him, I’d stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Offline MMA10mm

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2011, 10:36:21 am »
And the longer ejector housing.
YES. How'd I forget that one?

Driftwood, love the dime front sight!  I was thinking of doing this on a different pistol, due to cutting the barrel back.  I've read of and seen guns in the old west with dime front sights.  How does the silver color and wider width interact? 

Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2011, 12:08:40 pm »
MMA10mm:

The sight that was originally on the gun was not original. It was a piece of steel in a half moon shape that looked like it had been nickel plated. If you look carefully at my photos you can see the original sight, compared to the dime. The rear sight on these guns is such a tiny notch that the front sight that was on the gun almost completely filled up the notch, making it difficult to shoot accurately. On top of that, my eyesight is very poor. The dime is thinner than the sight that was on the gun. Hap had to shim it on both sides to get it to fit the slot. The other thing is, most of these guns had front sights like a knife blade. The front sight on my New Model Number Three is so thin that in poor light, with my terrible eyesight. I completely loose it. Can't see it at all. Clearly, the guys who set records with these guns over 100 years ago had much better vision than me. I am away from home right now, but when I get home I will measure the thickness of the sight that was on the gun and the dime for comparison.

The dime presents a front sight of equal thickness for its entire height. Plus, being a bit narrower than the sight that was on the gun, it provides more daylight on either side when viewed through the narrow rear sight. The color is not much different than the sight that was on the gun in the first place. I have only used it in three matches where they allowed me to. I had no trouble picking up the sight at all. Probably the serrations on the dime helped me pick it up too, and probably cut down on glare a bit. All in all I am quite pleased with it.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 12:10:13 pm by Driftwood Johnson »
That’s bad business! How long do you think I’d stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he’d pay me that much to stop robbing him, I’d stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Offline Marshal Deadwood

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2011, 05:48:47 pm »
Them Smiths make me drool all over myself.

MD

Offline MMA10mm

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Re: S&W American early variations
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2019, 12:47:44 pm »