Author Topic: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?  (Read 6100 times)

Offline TwoWalks Baldridge

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1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« on: June 14, 2011, 03:37:32 pm »
Been looking at the Grand Army of the Frontier and have grown a little confused.  This is not a new condition for me but I hope others will have patience and understanding with me.

The time period covered is stated as 1860 - 1900 (1858 in one place) and there is a list of Battle Rifle Standards.  The oldest U.S. rifle that I seen listed was the SPENCER MODEL 1860 CARBINE.  This was issued in very small numbers during the 1860 - 1863 time period mainly to the Union Cavalry.  I have not seen any classes for shooting Muzzle loading rifles, so is there a hole in the time period or have I missed something?
When guns are banned, fear the man with a hammer

Offline Drydock

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2011, 04:29:34 pm »
In the first paragraph of "Examples", you will see where we narrow ourselves technologicaly to longarms firing fixed ammuntion utilizing self contained primers.  IE we do not do anything with muzzle loaders, nor those weapons with seperate priming, such as a paper cartridge Sharps.

2 reasons.  
-Such weapons are nearly impossible to integrate into a modern multigun combat format.
-There are allready other venues for them, NSSA in particular.

We are dedicated to the cartridge milspec weapons of the late Victorian era, while recognizing that there is some technological overlap with the earlier ML era.  IE we define our weapons niche by hardware, not calendar dates.  Roughly speaking we run from the beginnings of the black powder cartridge era to the end of 1st generation smokeless, all Milspec.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 04:46:58 pm by Drydock »
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline TwoWalks Baldridge

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2011, 06:09:18 pm »
In the first paragraph of "Examples", you will see where we narrow ourselves technologicaly to longarms firing fixed ammuntion utilizing self contained primers.  IE we do not do anything with muzzle loaders, nor those weapons with seperate priming, such as a paper cartridge Sharps.

2 reasons.  
-Such weapons are nearly impossible to integrate into a modern multigun combat format.
-There are allready other venues for them, NSSA in particular.

We are dedicated to the cartridge milspec weapons of the late Victorian era, while recognizing that there is some technological overlap with the earlier ML era.  IE we define our weapons niche by hardware, not calendar dates.  Roughly speaking we run from the beginnings of the black powder cartridge era to the end of 1st generation smokeless, all Milspec.

Thanks Drydock.  I would agree that the muzzle loaders would be really hard to include in CAS type shooting, so this has a great deal of logic that I can accept.  Glad to know these old eyes was not missing something important.  ;D
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 06:15:46 pm by "TwoWalks" Baldridge »
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Offline Drydock

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2011, 06:17:27 pm »
The dates do serve as a rough approximation for those that need that sort of thing.  Think of them as what pirates might call "guidelines" . . .   ;)
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline TwoWalks Baldridge

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2011, 08:19:06 pm »
The dates do serve as a rough approximation for those that need that sort of thing.  Think of them as what pirates might call "guidelines" . . .   ;)

Drydock, since you have been kind enough to help educate an old man.  I have seen mention of "Militia, Scout, Buffalo Scout and Forager Scout" in the Battle Rifle Standards, is there another area that explains more on these classes?
When guns are banned, fear the man with a hammer

Offline Drydock

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2011, 08:27:59 pm »
Go here:  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,33665.0.html     You'll find more detailed descriptions of the classes.  If you have any questions, please ask them here, I'm always happy to clairify any rules or weapons questions.  Its my job actualy, as the GAF Ordnance officer.   ;D
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline TwoWalks Baldridge

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 09:01:04 am »
Go here:  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,33665.0.html     You'll find more detailed descriptions of the classes.  If you have any questions, please ask them here, I'm always happy to clairify any rules or weapons questions.  Its my job actualy, as the GAF Ordnance officer.   ;D

Thank you Sir, headed there now.  Your patience and directions are very appreciated.
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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 11:10:02 am »
TW,
Have you "enlisted yet? It's free and easy. Go here http://www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org/ and click the enlist/recruit link. It's free and easy.
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
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Grand Army of the Frontier
BC/IT, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, CC, SoM
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Offline TwoWalks Baldridge

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2011, 12:31:06 pm »
TW,
Have you "enlisted yet? It's free and easy. Go here http://www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org/ and click the enlist/recruit link. It's free and easy.

Sir, I sent in my enlistment papers this morning.  I hope they went through as the pony express has been having problems along the route.  I wait with anticipation to hear if I have been accepted.
When guns are banned, fear the man with a hammer

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2011, 11:00:05 pm »
You have been accepted. Our Enlistment Officer (like all of us) is a volunteer, so it may take a day or two before the announcement is made.
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
(Bvt.)Brigadier General Commanding,
Grand Army of the Frontier
BC/IT, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, CC, SoM
NRA CRSO, RVWA IIT2; SASS ROI, ROII;
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Offline TwoWalks Baldridge

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2011, 08:22:37 am »
I am honored to join the ranks of so many brave and dedicated souls.  I also have a pard that enlisted yesterday as well, Steven Curly Bear Brown, Scout.
When guns are banned, fear the man with a hammer

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2011, 10:19:49 am »
Great!
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
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Grand Army of the Frontier
BC/IT, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, CC, SoM
NRA CRSO, RVWA IIT2; SASS ROI, ROII;
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Offline Willie Dixon

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2011, 02:58:49 am »
Mr. Drydock,

First I know better than to call you "sir" as you were unfortunately an MA1 in the USNavy.  I say unfortunately because of my time in the USCG! :P

Second, I have a question about the rifle standards myself.  I'm wanting to do a scout persona costume-wise, but I shoot a Spencer Carbine replica.  Can I do that?  I love the battle rifles, especially the Spencer, Trapdoor, and Sharps Carbines.

And I promise, I will look scout, not SASS wanna-be scout.  I've done a TON of research on the US Army Civilian Scouts and their gear.  Best people to look up have been the "three Bills":  Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickock and then Billy Dixon, along with Kit Carson for an earlier look.  If anyone else wants help finding this type of thing, Google was worthless until I actually started looking up people.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2011, 10:06:33 am »
Never had to arrest any Puddle Pirates myself!   ::)  

"Scout" is just the name of a class.  The Spencer Carbine is considered a Milspec weapon, and can be shot in the Milspec classes.  Indeed, I reccomend shooting the Spencer in the Milspec Black Powder Repeater class, as the Spencer is virtualy the only MBPR we have available, thus MBPR (Or Black Powder "Marksman" under the new class names) is a Spencer class.  

You do  not have to wear a uniform to shoot in any of the Milspec classes.  Nor do you have to dress like a Scout to shoot in the "Scout" class.  Classes are defined by the rifle you shoot, not how you dress.
 
An authentic "Scout" portrayal is very welcome, no matter what class you shoot.

Though I mostly shoot a Krag, over the years I've accumulated a Spencer, A Trapdoor and a Sharps myself.  My son will be using the Trapdoor at our Departmental Muster in July.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 10:09:59 am by Drydock »
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Willie Dixon

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2011, 11:15:29 am »
Thanks Col.

I thought that was the case, I just wanted to double check before I started really getting into stitching up my buckskins instead of ordering a cav uniform! ;)

Fair winds, brother.  Puddle Pirate, Navy PB, either way, ain't the small boats fun?

Dutifully yours;
Willie Dixon - scout
At 25, you need to follow dreams or you'll regret it later. 

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Offline Drydock

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2011, 11:22:18 am »
My last 3 years I skippered 47 FT PBs out of Bahrain, Dubai, and the Tigris-Euphrates Delta.  Best time of my career!  2 .50s, 2 .30s, 2 600 HP jet drives.   ;D
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2011, 02:16:16 pm »
Yeah, and didn't you wear your '73 colts on duty?
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
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Offline TwoWalks Baldridge

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2011, 03:13:58 pm »
Yeah, and didn't you wear your '73 colts on duty?

Only if they were ivory griped and reverse draw.  ;D
When guns are banned, fear the man with a hammer

Offline Drydock

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2011, 05:45:52 pm »
*Sigh* I wish.  Hard enough to get my 1911 over there. 
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Willie Dixon

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Re: 1860 Battle Rifle Standards?
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2011, 04:46:28 am »
*Sigh* I wish.  Hard enough to get my 1911 over there.  

It was the same for me.  Couldn't shoot worth beans with the beretta.  I blame the DA trigger more than anything, my Sig is the same way today as that beretta was 10 years ago, I just have put about 10 times as many rounds through it to get better acquainted.  Luckily my GMC (chief gunner's mate) had no problem letting me prove myself with my Kimber.

Once we got back to San Diego, Gunnie, being upset like he was that I couldn't even qualify with the advanced course walked up to me and asked "son, I hear you have a kimber." more as a statement rather than a question, I said, "yes gunnie" and so he let me try qualifying with her.  Wouldn't you know it, shot expert with her in the normal course, passed with flying colors, only 2 misses in the advanced course. ;)

That kimber and I literally have now been through hell and back together.
At 25, you need to follow dreams or you'll regret it later. 

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

 

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