Author Topic: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?  (Read 56049 times)

Offline cactus joe

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2020, 02:57:11 pm »
Very nice shooting with original sights and old eyes. For me shooting at 50 yds i have use a tang sight if i want to have a chance to hit where i'm aiming.

Offline ndnchf

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2020, 04:53:26 pm »
I have tang sights on my other two #2 rolling blocks and they really help. But they are later versions in 32-20 and 32 extra long rimfire (converted to centerfire so it now shoots 32 Ballard Extra Long). This 44 cal #2 is an early version made before tang sights were popular. It is not drilled/tapped for one. As much as I'd like to have one, I'm not going to drill it.

BTW, the original factory heel bullet lube I made up worked fine. I was a little concerned that the lube covered bullet would be difficult to chamber. But it wasn't a problem. The bore cleaned easily afterwards. There was no leading.

Today I turned heels on 70 more 427098 bullets and tumble lubed them with diluted LLA. I'll try these out with my light smokeless loads.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline ndnchf

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #102 on: May 03, 2020, 07:04:01 am »
I was able to collect more chronograph data a couple days ago. I was particularly interested in seeing what the 3F Old Eynsford would do. Thus old E load is about as close as I can get to the original 44 rimfire cartridge. All these were loaded with a 40-1 Lyman 427098 bullet with the last band turned down to a .412" heel. They weigh 208gr. Shortened .41 Magnum brass was used.

6.0gr Unique, CCI LP primer = avg 973fps

12.5gr by weight Blackhorn 209, CCI LPM primer = avg 847fps

22.0gr by weight Old Eynsford 3F. CCI LP primer = avg 1092fps.

I should note that I didnt yet have the collet crimp die from Bernie Rowles. But it arrived yesterday and works great.

Accuracy has been very good. The Old E load sounded very nice. It's not quite at the 44-40 level. But it's quite respectable.

In case you can't tell, I'm really enjoying this rifle.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline ndnchf

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #103 on: May 03, 2020, 07:15:41 am »
This morning I loaded more 44 centerfire for my #2 rolling block. I'm trying to replicate the original al 44 rimfire cartridge as close as possible. I don't know for sure how much powder the original rimfire cartridge held, but I suspect it was close to 25gr. The most I can get in the centerfire cases is 23gr., and that takes some work. Thats what I wanted to show. 

The first image shows 23gr of Old Eynsford 3F just poured into the case from the scale. It starts to overflow the case. No way a bullet can be seated. The second image shows the same exact charge slowly poured through a 24" drop tube.  The third image shows that same 23gr, drop tubed charge after being compressed about .075" using a compression die.

After compressing the powder, there is now about .155" between the case mouth and powder. The bullet's heel is .150". This makes a perfectly fitted powder column to the bullet.

Lastly, is the cartridge with the bullet seated and crimped using Bernie Rowles special collet crimp die. This is about as close as I can get to the original cartridge from 140 years ago. I'm hoping the increase from 22 to 23gr and the crimp will bring average velocity over the 1100 fps mark.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline cactus joe

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #104 on: May 03, 2020, 08:18:53 am »
I always thought the original .44 henry case held 28grs of powder, but i can see from your pics that looks impossible. Are you using a over shot over your charge?

Offline ndnchf

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #105 on: May 03, 2020, 09:37:29 am »
While very similar to the 44 Henry, this is a 44 rimfire/centerfire for a Remington rolling block. The case length is .965".  The old thin, folded head rimfire cases just held more powder.  I'm going by powder weight. Way back then they may have gone by bulk measurement - not sure.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline ndnchf

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #106 on: May 03, 2020, 01:39:43 pm »
Bullet dip lubed in the old factory heel bullet lube I made up. Ready for the range later this week.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline greyhawk

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #107 on: May 03, 2020, 10:02:05 pm »
Joe,

I recall reading about that.  Young girl and her brother out gathering and ended up in a tree with the bear coming after them?  Do you have the article or a site to read it?  I thought it was a Single shot rifle and she used 22 shorts.  If I remember it correctly she shot it 6 or 8 times and after it died the kids went back to camp and only mentioned the incident after a couple of days.  Wish I could find my copy of the thing.  If you can help out, it would be appreciated.

As for the 44 Henry, I believe it about equals the 45 Cowboy Special when both use black powder.  When I get the time, I'll check my books.

Read that story in Ole's Big Game Steakhouse in Paxton Nebraska - I thought the Grizzly skin was there on the wall too, but could have been a replica - story said she took him out with the first shot but then followed up just in case - makes sense - if ya didnt get him with the first 22 short he'd et ya before ya got the second .
The food was good but incredible display of game trophys from all over the world - friends took me there on a trip.

Offline greyhawk

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #108 on: May 03, 2020, 10:32:34 pm »
Howdy Again

One thing about Browning's designs like the '92 and the '86 that some folks don't realize is that in addition to being lighter and stronger than their predecessor the '73, they were also less expensive to produce. You got a stronger, lighter gun for less money. At least they cost less to build, I dunno if the savings were passed on to the buying public.
Driftwood
Ya have me puzzled here, how come less expensive to produce ?
I am an amateur (backyard - hobby) machinist, I reckon given enough time I could scratch build a toggle action gun that would work. I converted a model 92 from 32/20 to 38/40 a couple years ago so I am intimate with the innards of one of those  - do I think I could build one ? no way mate!
Have made a lot of stuff over the years but I have no experience with factory production so just looking at the complexity of machining and the tolerances required for proper function both of which to my mind are heavily on the side of the simpler toggle guns --enlighten me please?

Offline nativeshootist

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #109 on: May 20, 2020, 10:11:53 pm »
I thought I'd come and share these little snippets from Yellowstone Kellys book, I know some stuff gets changed and whatnot but I believe that he used his rifles chambered in .44 Henry to a great extent. Now would I be man enough too do what he did? probably not but never know.
"There were buffaloes feeding within half a mile and I took my rifle and started afoot to get some meat. I approached to within seventy-five yards of a bunch of cows that stood unafraid gazing at me. There was some choice of meat here, for there were many two- or three- year-old heifers and young bulls. Though it seemed doubtful that they would stay for nearer approach I walked along for ten or fifteen yards, for I was mindful that I carried a .44 Henry and the little flat-nosed bullet did not always stop a bull at seventy-five yards. Selecting a two-year-old heifer I let drive and she did not go many yards before falling inert on the ground."

"Meanwhile, the buffaloes were pressing along so close that we were in danger of being run over. At this juncture my partner threw a stick of wood, which hit an old bull on the back. The animal paid no attention to this, and thinking his hide would make a cover for us on a cold night I rose up and plugged him in the center of the mass of hair that hung over his eyes. I had been told that a .44 caliber Henry bullet would not penetrate the bone through this mass of hair and sand, but he dropped and there was great tumult as the herd parted right and left, slipping, sliding, and falling over each other in their excitement. Skinning him was no fun, but at night the heavy green hide stretched over the canvas that covered our bed kept us snug and warm."

Like I said, don't think I'd be man enough. Probably get the whole herd chasing me down till i was jelly on the ground.


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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #109 on: May 20, 2020, 10:11:53 pm »

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #110 on: May 20, 2020, 11:18:05 pm »
I thought I'd come and share these little snippets from Yellowstone Kellys book, I know some stuff gets changed and whatnot but I believe that he used his rifles chambered in .44 Henry to a great extent. Now would I be man enough too do what he did? probably not but never know.
"There were buffaloes feeding within half a mile and I took my rifle and started afoot to get some meat. I approached to within seventy-five yards of a bunch of cows that stood unafraid gazing at me. There was some choice of meat here, for there were many two- or three- year-old heifers and young bulls. Though it seemed doubtful that they would stay for nearer approach I walked along for ten or fifteen yards, for I was mindful that I carried a .44 Henry and the little flat-nosed bullet did not always stop a bull at seventy-five yards. Selecting a two-year-old heifer I let drive and she did not go many yards before falling inert on the ground."

"Meanwhile, the buffaloes were pressing along so close that we were in danger of being run over. At this juncture my partner threw a stick of wood, which hit an old bull on the back. The animal paid no attention to this, and thinking his hide would make a cover for us on a cold night I rose up and plugged him in the center of the mass of hair that hung over his eyes. I had been told that a .44 caliber Henry bullet would not penetrate the bone through this mass of hair and sand, but he dropped and there was great tumult as the herd parted right and left, slipping, sliding, and falling over each other in their excitement. Skinning him was no fun, but at night the heavy green hide stretched over the canvas that covered our bed kept us snug and warm."

Like I said, don't think I'd be man enough. Probably get the whole herd chasing me down till i was jelly on the ground.

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Offline nativeshootist

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #111 on: May 21, 2020, 10:13:04 am »
Same Professor, but what i didn't add said that it was during a blizzard in Montana, desperation makes a man do things he never thought of. but like you, i probably wouldn't sleep under a green hide.

Offline Yeso Bill

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #112 on: May 22, 2020, 12:54:00 am »
Very likely they smelled just like that hide so why would it bother them?
 
Billy

Offline nativeshootist

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2020, 07:52:32 pm »
Very true

Offline greyhawk

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #114 on: May 24, 2020, 05:32:37 pm »
to the original question .......the 44 henry rimfire would stack up just fine - becuz the 44/40 (commercial ammo) has been detuned, for at least the last 60 years, by about 150 FPS from the original blackpowder loadings. 

Offline ndnchf

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #115 on: May 25, 2020, 10:04:49 am »
Just to follow up on my #2 rolling block 44 rimfire to centerfire rifle. The 23gr charge of old eynsford 3F and heel cut 208gr Lyman 427098 bullet yielded an average 1124fps. I'd say thats pretty respectable and stacks up well.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline greyhawk

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #116 on: May 25, 2020, 06:04:47 pm »
Just to follow up on my #2 rolling block 44 rimfire to centerfire rifle. The 23gr charge of old eynsford 3F and heel cut 208gr Lyman 427098 bullet yielded an average 1124fps. I'd say thats pretty respectable and stacks up well.

Its interesting - the economy of lower velocity charges in smaller(ish) cases .....................add half again to your load (34grains instead of 23) loaded into a 44/40 case would net you very little more velocity .....................
I always wondered whether an increase in priming compound was a factor in the 44 henry RF velocity ???

Offline ndnchf

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #117 on: May 26, 2020, 10:12:12 am »
Its interesting - the economy of lower velocity charges in smaller(ish) cases .....................add half again to your load (34grains instead of 23) loaded into a 44/40 case would net you very little more velocity .....................
I always wondered whether an increase in priming compound was a factor in the 44 henry RF velocity ???

Yes, I wondered that too. My load was with CCI LP primers. Maybe magum primers would add a little more umph.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline dusty texian

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #118 on: May 27, 2020, 02:14:47 pm »
Just to follow up on my #2 rolling block 44 rimfire to centerfire rifle. The 23gr charge of old eynsford 3F and heel cut 208gr Lyman 427098 bullet yielded an average 1124fps. I'd say thats pretty respectable and stacks up well.
                                     That's a good bit of power from a # 2 RB , pretty efficient  cartridge . ,,,DT

 

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