Author Topic: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?  (Read 59159 times)

Offline matt45

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2015, 01:33:53 PM »
I've had some experience w/ the sonic loads too close to the Chronograph.  I can't speak for everybody, but my readings were very erratic- easy to see that something was wrong.

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2015, 02:51:46 AM »
Come to think of it, my loads then were a hodgepodge of FFg & FFFg for CAS. Some, I even mixed the two granulations to use up old cans.

Offline nativeshootist

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #82 on: July 31, 2015, 01:55:48 AM »
I'm new to reloading and lots of things for CAS, but is i'm so confused reading this. So Mako's bullet will bring give the 44 russian a 28 grain powder charge and it will fire in a rifle chambered for 44spl?

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #83 on: July 31, 2015, 04:22:05 PM »
I'm too lazy to go back and re-read this whole thread.  But.  Sorta and Yes.  I don't believe you can actually get a full 28Gr powder charge into a 44 Russian case.  I could be wrong on that, but I think the internal volume of a modern 44 Russian would not allow that much 3f without severe compression.
Yes.  .44 Russian cases can be successfully run in a 44 Special Rifle.  You betcha.  the real treque is finding a Henry in 44 Special.  Scarce.
Real scarce.  Should one find a .44 Special Henry, DO NOT tell me where it is unless your really quick with a check book  ;D  Running .44 Russian in a Henry is a simple matter.  You have two choices.  First choice, contact "The Smith Shop" in Rhode Island and have Bill English make you up a swell carrier with a spring loaded flipper cartridge stop.  Install per the instructions.  Second Choice.  Take the carrier out of the rifle and lay the round you want to run in the cartridge channel.  Move it forward until a straight edge stop it at the front of the cartridge channel.  Move it back a couple of thou.  Note where the rear of the case rim is.  Drill and tap thru the side of the cartridge channel for a 6-32 set screw.  Trim the set screw until it just clears the flat part of the Breach Block (bolt).  File the set screw to that length and install it in the carrier block with blue LocTite.  Cut a clearance channel in the front of the Breach Block for the set screw.  PRESTO!!
Runs short cartridge.  Exactly the same procedure to run Cowboy 45 Special in a Henry.

Coffinmaker

PS:  I forgot to include, the above method ONLY works in a Henry that is chambered in 44 Special or has been re-chambered for 44 Special.  Or 45 Colt

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #84 on: August 02, 2015, 01:45:26 AM »
FCK,
Excellent idea...

Thanks. Here are more in different thicknesses for you to play with:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/173/2?PageSize=25

Thanks for all the great research on this topic as it is fascinating at the minimum.  ;)  Years ago, I experimented a lot with 44-40 BP loads using BP 'duplex' loads, e.g., FFFg mixed with FFg and even different brands of such. I "buffered" Swiss FFFg with Elephant FFg to stretch a dollar and it actually worked very well. The Elephant FFg served to "mute" the Swiss FFFg  somewhat, yet still retained most of its moist burning properties.

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #85 on: Today at 09:53:38 PM »

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #85 on: August 02, 2015, 07:45:45 AM »
Performance wise for playing the game why not a current 45 schofield? Run it in a 45 colt rifle and should be as close as anything currently available to duplicate the performance of the 44 Henry.

The 28 grain powder charge is right for the Schofield brass and a .452 200 grain bullet is the correct weight and closer in diameter to the original 44 Henry than a 44 Russian.

I believe the 44 Henry was somewhere around a .446 bullet, not a .430.
http://www.fendleyknives.com/

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Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #86 on: May 15, 2017, 11:07:04 AM »
Tripped across this thread, and thought it was worth reviving from the dead.

Cliff, I did just that.  I use a .45 Schofield in my 1860 Henry and 1872 Open tops to exactly duplicate the .44 Henry Flat round.  When I did black powder, I used 27 grns FFG or 28 grains FFFG, with a 200 grain bullet.  Now I use 7 grains of Trail Boss and get about 1100+ from my Henry.  Also, the .452" diameter bullet in my Schofield load is only .01" larger than the .442"-.444" original Henry rounds I checked.  The overall length of the 200 grain Schofield is just 1/10" longer than the original  .44 Henry Flat round.

TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
CO. F, 12th Illinois Cavalry  SASS # 6127 Life * Spencer Shooting Society #43 * Motherlode Shootist Society #1 * River City Regulators

Offline Mean Bob Mean

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2017, 11:29:18 AM »
Smokeless in a Henry?

Blasphemy :)

hang him, hang him high.
"We tried a desperate game and lost. But we are rough men used to rough ways, and we will abide by the consequences."
- Cole Younger

Offline Mean Bob Mean

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2017, 11:30:35 AM »
I'm too lazy to go back and re-read this whole thread.  But.  Sorta and Yes.  I don't believe you can actually get a full 28Gr powder charge into a 44 Russian case.  I could be wrong on that, but I think the internal volume of a modern 44 Russian would not allow that much 3f without severe compression.

I get approximately 30 in my .44 Colt loads but I tap them to make em settle then top them off.  This is measured by volume, not by weight.  I will toss a few onto the scale to see what the load out is. 
"We tried a desperate game and lost. But we are rough men used to rough ways, and we will abide by the consequences."
- Cole Younger

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #89 on: May 15, 2017, 11:31:45 AM »
My beauties.... ;D

TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
CO. F, 12th Illinois Cavalry  SASS # 6127 Life * Spencer Shooting Society #43 * Motherlode Shootist Society #1 * River City Regulators

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #90 on: Today at 09:53:38 PM »

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #90 on: May 15, 2017, 11:45:02 AM »
I know, I know... I used to shoot only "holy black," or subs.  Problem is, I am no longer set up to load 12 ga. BP loads, and don't have the time, either. I am busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest selling real estate, and am lucky to shoot one match a month.   Also, Trail Boss is so dang easy, and even smokes quite a bit.  I'm old and lazy, I guess.
TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
CO. F, 12th Illinois Cavalry  SASS # 6127 Life * Spencer Shooting Society #43 * Motherlode Shootist Society #1 * River City Regulators

Offline Mean Bob Mean

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #91 on: May 15, 2017, 01:51:07 PM »
I know, I know... I used to shoot only "holy black," or subs.  Problem is, I am no longer set up to load 12 ga. BP loads, and don't have the time, either. I am busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest selling real estate, and am lucky to shoot one match a month.   Also, Trail Boss is so dang easy, and even smokes quite a bit.  I'm old and lazy, I guess.

It's all good as long as you're having fun. 
"We tried a desperate game and lost. But we are rough men used to rough ways, and we will abide by the consequences."
- Cole Younger

Offline Scattered Thumbs

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #92 on: May 15, 2017, 03:04:59 PM »
hang him, hang him high.

And with a short rope.  ;D

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2017, 08:17:24 PM »
Y'all are aware I hope,  In lots of circles,  Necromancy, participation in Necromancy, and blow up dolls are considered illegal??  Often, especially when used in an HOV lane, it'll get ya points on yer license.

The walking dead are suppose to stay ..... dead!!  So there.

Coffin (to the dead) maker

Offline Greg

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2018, 02:37:02 PM »
Fox Creek Kid

what exactly is the title of this book ?  Amazon did not have a Kopec book list
Thanks for your help.





This is all covered in the Colt Peacemaker "Bible", the Kopec book. Interestingly, what we now know as the Colt '72 Open Top bested the Colt SAA in military tests but the military was sold on a solid frame revolver at this time.

Offline Coal Creek Griff

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2018, 03:32:18 PM »
Take a look here for more info: http://johnakopec.com/, or more  specifically here: http://johnakopec.com/index.php?page=astudyofthecoltsingleactionarmyrevolver

Hopefully that helps.

CC Griff
Manager, WT Ranch--Coal Creek Division

BOLD #921
BOSS #196
1860 Henry Rifle Shooter #173
SSS #573

Offline ndnchf

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2020, 10:34:51 AM »
I'm reviving this old thread yet again ;D

This is such a good discussion of the early 44 cartridges and ballistics. I stumbled on it while researching my current project. An 1870s vintage #2 Remington rolling block chambered in 44 rimfire.  Careful chamber measurements indicate that the centerfire equivalent is nearly identical to 44 S&W American.

I swapped in a centerfire breech block and made cases from both 303 Savage and 41 magnum.  I bought a box of 44 S&W American heel bullets from BACO to start. I determined the best case length to be .965". This works with the BACO bullet and a Lyman 427098 bullet. The latter is the classic 44-40 bullet. I simply put them in the lathe and turn a .412" heel on them.

This cartridge is a bit anemic compared to the others discussed here. But with Swiss 1.5, I'm getting over 1000fps out of this rifle.

It's a fun project. I've really enjoyed reading this thread.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Online Abilene

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2020, 10:51:56 AM »
Good work!  How's it shoot?

Online Dave T

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #98 on: April 25, 2020, 11:49:52 AM »
ndnchf, what a delightful little rifle. Do you put lube in those grease grooves? If not how is the bullet lubricated...wads?

Inquiring minds would like to know. (smile)

Dave

Offline ndnchf

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Re: how would the .44 rim fire stack up with todays ammo?
« Reply #99 on: April 25, 2020, 05:26:39 PM »
Delightful is an excellent description. I have three #2 rolling blocks and love shooting them all. For smokeless lube, I found a recipe from a 1943 Amerucan Rifleman magazine that said it was a factory heel bullet lube. I made some up, then dipped the nose in it up to the case mouth. It's a fairly hard, non-sticky lube. For black powder. I use a home brewed lube in the outside groove.

Today was my second trip to the range with this rifle. My goal was to see if the Ideal 427098 bullets that I lathe cut heels on would work. I'm pleased to say they did.

The rifle's groove diameter is .430", the bullets were the same size. Usually I prefer bullets .001- .0015" over groove size. But this is what I had on hand. They were cast of 40-1 alloy, which helps.

They drilled nice straight holes at 50 yds, so I'm very happy with that. The biggest problem is my aging eyes and the original barrel sights.  It really seemed to like the Old Eynsford 3F and Unique loads. It grouped well despite the errant shots that are my fault. It does show good potential. I'll make more 427098 here bullets :-)
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

 

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