M1907 Winchester SLR

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq.]

I'm thinking about one of these. They were produced from 1907 to about 1957 with 50,000+ being made. They are only found in .351 Winchester SLR. Some have said they were the inspiration for the M1 Carbine (even though that turned out to be a very different weapon). U.S. military use was by the Army with the First Aero Squadron during the Punative Expedition. It was extensively used by the observers in French aircraft in WWI. The British used a few; the Russians placed a large order but I'm not sure how many was ever delivered.

The major market turned out to be law enforcement, prison guards, and the early Border Patrol (when officers were required to buy their own weapons). At least a few went to the Texas Rangers. There were civilian sales but it was always an expensive weapon (relative to Winchester's other offerings).

It came with a five round factory mag. but 10 round mags., Winchester and aftermarket, were available.

Prices run from about $400 for a rough version to $2000 for a Deluxe version in good condition. Ammo is available from a number of vendors who specialize in "obsolete" calibers but is pricy.

If anyone has any advice or experience with this rifle I'd be obliged if they could post it! 

SQQ

[JimBob]

If you can find a copy John Henwood wrote a pretty good book on the Winchester Self-Loaders titled "The Forgotten Winchesters".Has Chapters on loading for them and maintaining them as well as information on all the models.

I've owned some M1907 rifles and still have one as well as the M1910 in .401WCF.Do not expect tack driving accuacy with these.The repo magazines are for the most part junk.Original magazines have a roller on the front of the follower which the repos don't causing jams which can really bugger up a cartridge and at an average price of $1+ a round it ain't worth it.Original magazines are hard to find and expensive.Also sometimes even on original magazines if it's not the one that came with the rifle they often require some fitting to function correctly.One weak point on these is the forearm it's not unusual to find them cracked.They are very thin.The one reloading component that is hard to find is jacketed bullets.Some reloaders swage a slightly larger jacketed bullet down but don't remember if it was .357 or .41 Mag bullets.Parts are pretty much non-existent,at one time Springfield Sporters had some but not sure now.


These are fun once in awhile shooters but due to the ammo and replacement parts situation not something to pick as a regular trip to the range shooter.Buy the best condition you can.Often times you can find the very late ones in near mint condition at prices competative with the older pretty well used up ones.

A note regarding the M1 Carbine.It was not the rifle that was used as a basis for the design but the cartridge.The cartridge for the Carbine was based on the .32SLR round used by the M1905 Winchester.



Here's a site for early auto loader enthusiasts http://vintagesemiautorifle.proboards.com/index.cgi

[Grapeshot]

Somewhere in the far reaches of my memory I recall that brass could be made from .223 Remington, (5.56 NATO)  All that was required was the mouth be expanded to .357, trimmed to length and full length sized, loaded and fire formed.  Like I said, this info is old and I don't remember where I read it.  Make sure you anneal the brass first.

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[Delmonico]

You should have been around here about 25-30 years ago after the Nebraska State Pen bought the Mini-14's, they were at every gun show for cheap, about $150 as I remember and they had the 10 shot mags.

[JimBob]

Somewhere in the far reaches of my memory I recall that brass could be made from .223 Remington, (5.56 NATO)  All that was required was the mouth be expanded to .357, trimmed to length and full length sized, loaded and fire formed.  Like I said, this info is old and I don't remember where I read it.  Make sure you anneal the brass first.

Most current cartridge conversion manuals use .357 Maximum brass as the base cartridge for making .351 casings.You have to turn the rim to .407 diameter and cut an extractor groove then trim to length.If the .223 casing can be used it would have an undersized rim diameter of .378 as is.

[JimBob]

After thinking about your post,if your interest is in vintage self loaders give a look at the Remington Model 8.Remington called their model an auto loader.A John Browning long recoil desigh that was contemporary to the Winchester.Made in a range of calibers which were essentially rimless .30 and .32 WCF rounds plus the still available .35 Remington.They saw wide usage with Law Enforcement and criminals both very early on.They are usually easier to find than the Winchester and cheaper plus the ammo is available.As a side note one of them made an appearance used by I believe Warren Oates character in the movie "Ride the High Country" with Randolph Scott and Joel MaCrae.

[Zip Wyatt]

I still own two Model 1907s - one original with delexe wood and another that I had made up into a rifle that was actually used by the likes of Baby Face Nelson and John Dillinger during the 1930s.  The Lebman 1907 has a metal forearm with a Thompson vertical grip.  Several of these were recovered from the Dillinger gang when they were captured in Tucson Arizona.  In fact, the original style rifle was extremely popular with both the good and bad guys in the 1920s and 30s.  If you look at the gun caches recovered after bad guy shootouts in the 1930s there will always be one model 1907 or more.  Apparently the round out performs its paper ballistics punching though the heavy car doors of the time (45s from Thompsons would sometimes bounce off!!) and even through bullet proof vests.  Having a 10-round magazine, legal, from the factory was a big deal as well.

Cowboy interest wise, the 351 Winchesters were used by the Texas Rangers - who had to buy them with their own money - that's how much they thought of them.

If you are going to shoot them you should reload - I haven't set up for this caliber yet, but I will.  I was able to accumulate over 300 original rounds and shoot them on occasion keeping the brass for the future.  I also was able to get 6 of the 10-round mags - built like a tank and have never misfed.  I don't think they have much of a kick but the trigger pull does take some getting used to. 

The 1907 Winchester is a very important historic weapon from before WWII that nobody remembers. 

By the way, the Model 8 Remington is great too - "Ride the High Country" is a terrific movie that does indeed have Warren Oates using one. I have one in 30 Rem caliber and she's a honey too.


Zip

[Niederlander]

One of the best things about this forum is the cool stuff people are shooting and sharing knowledge about.  Outstanding!

[cpt dan blodgett]

After thinking about your post,if your interest is in vintage self loaders give a look at the Remington Model 8.Remington called their model an auto loader.A John Browning long recoil desigh that was contemporary to the Winchester.Made in a range of calibers which were essentially rimless .30 and .32 WCF rounds plus the still available .35 Remington.They saw wide usage with Law Enforcement and criminals both very early on.They are usually easier to find than the Winchester and cheaper plus the ammo is available.As a side note one of them made an appearance used by I believe Warren Oates character in the movie "Ride the High Country" with Randolph Scott and Joel MaCrae.

Possibly the .30 WCF but not the .32 WCF that is the 32/20. The .32 Special is the one that the .32 remington rimless emulated.

I inherited a 1905 Win.  It has essentially .357 mag long barrel hot pistol ballistics about 4 or 500 FPS slower than the .351 out of a case essentially the same length as a .38 spec.

[Forty Rod]

Old Scout had one that we fired a time or two.  Very interesting piece.  It's the hardest EJECTING gun I ever saw.  Threw the empties WAY out to the right.

I have a Model 8 Remington in .35 that belonged to my dad.  I'd like to find some more stripper clips for it and an extended magazine, too.

Right now I'm still trying to find the proper aperture insert for the Marbles tang sight.

[JimBob]

OLd Scout had one that we fired a time or two.  Very interesting piece.  It's the hardest EJECTING gun I ever saw.  Threw the empties WAY out to the right.

I have a Model 8 Remington in .35 that belonged to my dad.  I'd like to find some more stripper clips for it and an extended magazine, too.

Right now I'm still trying to find the proper aperture insert for the Marbles tang sight.

There is a fellow on this forum http://the greatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com who had some stripper clips for sale.

Try this gentleman for an aperature  http://www.garyfellers.com Long time vintage sight dealer,very reputable.

Those extended magazines for the Model 8 were only offered by the Peace Officer Equipment Co. of St.Joseph,Missouri and involved alterations to the rifle.I've never seen just a magazine for sale.The rifles with them are pretty scarce.

I've had several 8s and 81s still have a late M81 in .35 Rem as well as a Winchester M1907 and M1910.Fun shooters but the Remington I can easily buy ammo for,the Winnies are another story.

[Forty Rod]

Thanks, JimBob.  I'll give those fellas a holler.

My model 8 was made in 1921.  My dad bought it in 1941, and I got it from him in 1961.  He had the butt stock bobbed (Dad was the biggest short guy I ever met.) and had it re-blued. I have a line on a new stock and butt plate.  I figure it's more of a personal treasure than a monetary one.

It has taken seven or eight mule deer, a couple of elk, a black bear, and a pronghorn that I know of. I used an 03A3 before I bought the Remington from Dad and don't know what else he took with it when I was younger.

[cpt dan blodgett]

We need a 100 to 150 yard side match for the early autoloaders.  05,7, 10 winchesters and model 8 remmies.

[JimBob]

We need a 100 to 150 yard side match for the early autoloaders.  05,7, 10 winchesters and model 8 remmies.

LOL From my experience shooting the 07 you need a target with a real BIG ten ring to be competative with the Rem. 8.

[Forty Rod]

Yeah, the Remington weighs a ton, very heavy for a carbine size gun, but she shoots like a dream.  Rowdy Yates worked up some loads for me.  Got to get to a range and try them out, then we'll start talking about a side match. 

[cpt dan blodgett]

LOL From my experience shooting the 07 you need a target with a real BIG ten ring to be competative with the Rem. 8.

Was thinking more like a 2 x2 square or 'E" type silhouette size and  shape plate.  None of the winchesters were ever used to drive tacks either.

[JimBob]

Was thinking more like a 2 x2 square or 'E" type silhouette size and  shape plate.  None of the winchesters were ever used to drive tacks either.

LOL A full size 34 Ford silhouette might be better.

[Delmonico]

LOL A full size 34 Ford silhouette might be better.

That was so wrong, I like it.

[JimBob]

LOL Ok,how about a horse and rider silhouette.I believe Henwood's book on the 8 and 81 says they were reportedly used in the last bank robbery where horses were the prime means of escape.

How's that.

[Delmonico]

LOL Ok,how about a horse and rider silhouette.I believe Henwood's book on the 8 and 81 says they were reportedly used in the last bank robbery where horses were the prime means of escape.

How's that.