1858 timing problem

[Dee Mak Jack]

Just bought a Pietta 1858 and the bolt is out of time and is really marking the cylinder.  How does on adjust the timing to eliminate the problem.  Thanks

Dee Mak Jack

[Raven]

There are several things that can cause the bolt to mark the cylinder

If the bolt is dropping early the bolt leg is short. You will need to fit a new bolt.

Another common cause is letting the hammer down from half cock. This leaves the bolt down on the cylinder and when you pull to full cock the next time it drags the bolt across the cylinder.

You should cycle the gun and determine when the bolt falls. It should drop just before the trigger engages the hammer at full cock.
In a SAA Colt there is 60* between chambers and the bolt should fall at 55* or at the begining of the leed in to the bolt notch.
It is exactly the same in the Remington only the Remington has no leeds to the bolt notch.

If it is dropping early replace and fit a new bolt. If it times correctly refinish the cylinder and practice proper protocol on cocking and dropping the hammer.

Regards
Raven

[Li'll Red]

There is another way to delay the bold drop. The trigger has a cam pressed fit into it that lifts the bolt then when the bolt has enough tension on it, it slips past the cam slaming back into the cylinder. If it does that too soon, it can be from wear on the bolt OR the cam. I have held back the bolt release via peening this cam ever so slightly so it sticks out a little further from the trigger. ONLY DO THIS A LITTLE AT A TIME! This little bit of extra length in the cam will postpone the bolt release. However, please note that you will be hard pressed to find any vintage 58 that does not have bolt marks on the cylinder, and extensive ones at that. Seems to be the nature of the design.

[Raven]

The first thing to do is to determine where the bolt is dropping!

If the cylinder is scored completely around the circumference of the cylinder the cause is not a timeing isssue. The cause in this instance would be dropping the hammer from halfcock. The hammershould ALWAYS be pulled to fullcock before lowering it.

If the marking on the cylinder is only a short distance outside of the approved drop point peaning of the cam MAY solve the problem. But if it is dropping more than a couple of thousanths from the proper point no amount of peaning will solve the problem
Also most Italian hammers do not have pressed in cams (the cams are machined into the hammer) if peaning does not solve the problem you will need to buy a new hammer and a new bolt. Bolts are cheap! hammers are not!
There is a rule in gunsmithing that says - work on the cheapest part first
A new Uberti hammer Is $49 where as the bolt is $20 if the hammer is discontinued the price goes up exponentially

Cylinder scoring is not a design issue it is a timing issue or a failure to follow proper operation of the firearm.

If you would like another opinion check with Hoof Hearted he is very knowledgable on single action operation

Regards
Raven

[Li'll Red]

Granted, when reviewing parts you can purchase on VTI's site, ANY 58 they have parts for requires the purchase of the hammer if a new cam is needed, as a cam is not sold separate, however in my ASM, and a buddies Peitta and stainless Urberti, it is indeed a press fit part, not machined. It is very hard however to see this as it seems they case harden it after it is together. In fact, I thought mine was machined into the the hammer until this buddy showed me by adjusting as I noted. My BP gunsmithing book also does not note of any that are part of the hammer, but it does, in the 58 section, tell of how important it be placed back exactly in the same postion it was before it was removed. It can cause major hangup issues if it is removed and put back at a different rotation.

I beg to differ with the design issue, but it is an unimportant point. First, they ALL seem to do it over time if used or played with and any that I have seen either in person or on the web which are original and saw any use at all almost with out fail show a ring all the way around the cylinder, not just a third or half way. They were designed to work, to lock the cylinder in battery, and having a bolt drop early leaving a mark was not a huge concern to them as long as the gun fired. The materials used today in an Italian clone are a higher quality as far as purity, but not as far as hardness, so they too will suffer this indignity over time. Not to say one cannot continue to replace parts as soon as one sees this starting up to prevent it, but it is clear that in the 1860 to whenever, this was not a path taken often.

[Raven]

I work on remington 1858's on a daily basis and while some cams are pressed in many others are machined ( I also refinish many hammers to include colorcase hardening, if the cam is pressed in you will find out in the process of refinishing)
If the cam is not available for sale you must make one to replace it or buy a new hammer, so we are back to working on the cheapest part first.

In my experience most people already believe the know how to operate a Single Action after all what more do you need to know than cock the hammer and pull the trigger. Most people don't want to here that there is a correct way to operate the system they allready know best

Most old pistols have had decades of the uninitiated operating them and I do not believe you can make the conclusion that a ring around the cylinder is a design flaw just because many old revolvers have a ring.
I would suggest you obtain a new revolver that is correctly timed and then operate it the way I have outlined several hundered times and then we can discuss design flaws.
Granted these designs of revolvers have design flaws but the ring around the cylinder is either a timing issue (short scratches just before the locking notch) or operator error (ring around the cylinder)

I have built many custom Remingtons and have several in my collection both engraved and plane jane, I shoot all of them often, Not one of them has cylinder scratches.

Lil Red these posts are not an attack against you. I just believe people should start at the beginning and learn the proper handling of the system they are using. And when they encounter a problem do the trouble shooting and start at the beginning with appropriate repairs.
While peaning the cam would be a viable solution when the timing is only off by a very minor amount you should first determine if timing is the issue and if it is how much it is off. And then proceed with the appropriate repair

regards
Raven

[Montana Slim]

Well, lets see, the Remington (factory issue) cylinder bolt notches do not have a lead-in. Therefore, not to have a mark on the cylinder means the bolt is perfectly timed to pop-up in the notch.....for every notch. A revolver timed this perfectly will not give the best performance, especially as it is cocked at higher speed. IMHO, a well setup Remington pops the bolt about 1/16" or so early. You'll never over-rotate with that arrangement. Now, it will mark up the cylinder a bit, just where it leads in. Don't confuse this with the "ring".

My Remington does have a faint line "ring" all the way around. But, 35 years of shooting it, taking it apart and back together will do that. There is nothing wrong with the timing or method of operation. Eventually they all get there (unless they are not used). Another 35 years of hard use might wear the bolt notch out, though.

Here's my method of taking the cylinder out and putting it back correctly (this will delay getting a visible ring):
1) retract cylinder pin
2) while slightly lifting the hammer, simultaneously rotate teh cylinder out to the right side of the frame

To replace the cylinder
1) start with hammer down and while slightly lifting it, rotate the cylinder in from the left.
2) slide cylinder pin in, wiggle as needed to mate parts.

Much harder to describe than to perform.

As far as cams go, it is relatively simple to grind the cam flat, center-punch and drill out for replacement

Slim

[Raven]

What i don't understand is why you would remove or replace the cylinder without first placing the revolver at halfcock. At halfcock the bolt will be in the down position making it impossible to score the cylinder and by rotating the cylinder as you remove or replace it you will push the pawl out of the way facilitating installation/removal. I have done it both ways (Bolt up and Bolt down) and find bolt down to be much easier and it dosen't score my cylinder to boot. It is also much easier to remove the arbor when the revolver is at halfcock.

As you point out cam removal is very easy But cams are still unavailable commercialy and 90 some percent of the members of this forum do not have the skills to make one. So the best solution is still replace and fit a new bolt (the cheapest part) and replace the hammer if the cam is damaged. And even though some of us are qualified to make and replace a cam unless the hammer is unavailable it is probably cheaper to replace the hammer.

No offence but why do you guys want to make the job so hard

If you follow the first rule of single action safety - Alawys leave the hammer down on an empty chamber
And follow loading protocol - Load one skip a chamber then load the rest, pull the hammer to fullcock then lower it on the empty chamber. There is no reason your revolver should ever be scored.
I believe a gunfighter from the percussion era once said that the only reason you should load all six chambers is that your on your way to a gunfight and your life depended on every round you could get - or something there abouts 

Regards
Raven

[Hoof Hearted]

If you follow the first rule of single action safety - Alawys leave the hammer down on an empty chamber
And follow loading protocol - Load one skip a chamber then load the rest, pull the hammer to fullcock then lower it on the empty chamber. There is no reason your revolver should ever be scored.

This is the "Golden Rule" here guys.............



Also give Raven a break, he's a great resource and he is trying to help!

Don't burn him up................
HH

[Li'll Red]

No offence but why do you guys want to make the job so hard

No offence taken, however you assume that my taking this action was the tougher of those described when in fact, in my case it was the cheapest. My first instinct as a newbie was to replace that bolt, especially after lurking and reviewing so may BP forums for so long before ever joining.

In my case, it did not do much to change the situation. It was then that a buddy who was familiar with this problem showed me how he had fixed it on his. Took all of about 5 minutes to tear down the revolver to get the trigger out and another 15 seconds or so to tap the cam out a little further and about 5 minutes to put it back together. Total cost, FREE, total time, about 15 minutes vs. cost of bolt and shipping time the other way.

If you read my post, you will note I did not say my way is best or is the only way. In fact, reducing the tension on the bolt/trigger spring (the bolt half only) can also reduce the release of the bolt and it;s tendency to dig into the cylinder. I only added to what you suggested, based on my experience, and yes, others out there do have different but similar experiences. . I find it curious why you feel so offended or threatened by this, or at least it is starting to seem that way. At no point did I say "Hey, forget his advise, hey my way is best!" I merely brought up another option in the event the bolt replacement does not fix his problem. Even if you tap the cam through too far, a tap back in the other direction will zero out any issue, thus this is not expensive nor time consuming. Shucks, now I feel bad that I even had to explain this ;-)

I would never try to argue what is the best way to re-blue a firearm with you, you have experience which I do not, however if one wishes to banter the merits of different cold blue options, I feel providing others with what I have experienced is not out of the realm of reality, the same holds true for anything else I have experienced.

And Hoof Hearted said  "Also give Raven a break, he's a great resource and he is trying to help!"

Huh? What did we, or I do, which offended him? Is this not a forum where those of us can offer our experiences to others? Raven indeed gives tons of great advise, but does that mean the rest of us are to remain mum on our experiences, or that what we add is to sloffed off as not a viable option?

Raven gave the typical response which is to be expected for this question. It is easily the most common and no doubt will resolve the issue in most cases. Again, all I did was add to that. Think of my option as the road less traveled, but not the only road out there!

[Raven]

Lil Red
As a trained gunsmith maybe I am a little thin skinned on this.

But there are many things that the hobby gunsmith does without understanding the consequenses.

One of which is lightening the Bolt spring to leesen the pressure on the cylinder as you suggest.
This is a Safety issue! The spring is designed to keep that bolt locked in the notch when you lighten it you run the risk of the bolt bounceing and the gun firing out of battery and now the person opperating the guns life is at risk!

My only problem with your cam peaning solution and I believe I was fairly clear on this is that it is viable in a very limited way.
It is not the solution you start with. It is something you do after doing the proper trouble shooting. Specific to the original post and to my point. If the scoring was caused by dropping the hammer from halfcock and not from a timing issue if the first repair that was performed was peaning the cam the gun WILL now have a timing issue that can cost more to resolve than if the proper trouble shooting had been performed in the first place

The NRA offers summer classes in gunsmithing at several locations around the country and they do offer a class in single action design function and repair also AGI sells a very fine video on the same.

Regards
Raven

[Raven]

As an added thought

By peaning the cam you are enlarging the diameter of the cam this can cause a change in the relationship of the bolt to the cylinder. Specificly it can cause the bolt to pick-up earlier and when the gun is fired the enlarged cam may not be able to pick up the bolt leg making it impossible to unlock the bolt.
Now you are back to adjusting the bolt.
Most Italian bolts require very little fitting as new and again the cheapest fix may have been to replace and fit a bolt.
You must remember that the bolt, trigger, pawl, cam, and hammer are an inter connected system and most of the time to get good timing you can't just adjust one part you must adjust all of them untill the relationship between them is right.

We all have our opinions and there are as many ways to time a gun as there are gunsmiths.
There is a great book out there on the Single Action System called The Colt Single Actioin Revolvers by Jerry Kuhnhausen
I don't care if you ignore my advice but ignore Jerry's advice at your peril!

Regards
Raven

[Li'll Red]

You know what, whatever. You quote me wrong, you gotta show your superiority  via stating over and over again that my observation of what worked for me is kaka. I guess the Raven forum is the only forum.

Look, Raven, I am NOT trying to undermine your expertise, but again, I point our this is a forum. I can and will continue to note things here that I tried which worked. Please, re-read what I wrote and make sure you do not put words in my mouth.

My statement is not one of better or anything like that, strictly what worked. If I am guilty of anything, it is not making clear that my response is an alternative, that it takes a certain amount of common sense to accomplish, and if you are not mechanically inclined, than please, leave any firearm repairs to those who are. Even something you feel as simple as a bolt replacement can be botched up with disastrous results.

Fact be said, if assuming common sense, as in testing via dry runs the function of a repair or modification, is missing, then by all means, any and all suggestions short of taking it in for review is out of the question. I am guilty of the assumption that others have it and will do as I did and review their work, confirming that a bolt  will drop correctly and hold a cylinder in battery. Perhaps I am wrong, but if so, then who are any of us to make any form of suggestion of a do it yourself repair?

My suggestion may have benefited from a better description as all I am suggesting if a replacement bolt is not the fix is to press the bolt cam out further by a few thousands at a time at best. Yes, one can press it out so far the bolt will never drop it off the ledge, but again, test and review are something I have taken as a given. Too far, press it back. Close but not enough, perhaps a little more. I am not stating to reshape the face of the cam at all, just giving the bolt a little larger ledge to lay on. I in NO way (the words in my mouth thing) suggested enlarging the diameter of the cam, mushrooming it via smashing it with a hammer. Just knocking it through the hammer a couple more thousands to increase the ledge that the bolt rides, then slips off of. Think of a rod in a skin tight tube. The rod = cam, the tube= hammer. Push the rod a little deeper through the tube is all I am saying. This increases the area on the cam that the bolt rides on.

To me, this is fine tuning AND a learning experience. I massaged the heads of a half dozen colt bolts before I got a shape that minimized scouring. I broke a couple of Remington bolt springs too before I got it where I liked it. Yes, it cost a couple of bucks, but I had fun and I learned things.

I taught myself to do lead work on cars when I was 23 to restore, not hotrod, a 26 model "T". I taught myself how to shoot a basecoat clear coat paint job on a car, well enough to have a national show winner in my garage (check my www). My help on my son's resulted in his being in a national publication, both as a full 7 page article and as calendar car.

I taught myself how to repair pocket watches and other many other things. I read, I watch, I learn, I DO. My biggest issue is for those who are so set in their ways that they cannot admit or see any validity in anyone else's point of view. Knowledge of ANYTHING is an ongoing process. So again, I submit, do we assume those here have a common sense enough to review what they are doing, or do we submit they do not, and our answers should be accordingly.

You are most likely right, there are as most likely as many answers as there are gunsmiths. I have a couple gunsmithing books in my possesion too,author David R Chicoine among others, and yes, this method which I bring up is addressed there in at least one publication too, although as I noted, it was 1st brought to my attention via a buddyl.

At this point, this issue for me is dead. If you want to PM on this, fine, I will not continue to go back and forth here on it. Remember, you asked the question....
"No offence but why do you guys want to make the job so hard ". All I was dong was noting something else.

I added this latter, so  sorry. It was on my mind but overlooked.

Often, these lines are a result of NOTHING wrong with the firearm. Only that someone is playing with it, cocking and releasing the hammer, even if under the release tension of your thumb to prevent nipple mushrooming, if done at a slow to moderate pace, will result in the bolt dropping even in a properly timed 58 too soon. If cocked with authority, the timing may be spot on. If you time one like this to drop correctly with a slow cocking motion, the first time they do it with authority will result in the bolt releasing too late. All of his issues may in fact be nothing more than how he is handling the gun. Only someone observing his firearm will be able to tell or not.

[Raven]

Lil Red

I am sincerly sorry for offending you!

I did not intend in any way to sugest that your idea was "KAKA"

I am under the impression from the original post that the writer was completely uninitiated in the repair of firearms and was was attempting to give a step by step responce on how ro deal with his issue.

For some years I have taught gunsmithing as a guest instructor at Lassen Gunsmithing School and would have discussed this issue in the same way in class
Perhaps the mistake I have made is in forgetting that we are having this discussion in public.

Again I am sincerly sorry for offending you

Regards
Raven

[Professor Marvel]

Gentlemen - Raven, Lil Red

Having read this thread over several times, I believe I have found a possible cause of a simple misunderstanding -

Lil Red had posted:
-------------------------------
I have held back the bolt release via peening this cam ever so slightly so it sticks out a little further from the trigger. ONLY DO THIS A LITTLE AT A TIME! This little bit of extra length in the cam will postpone the bolt release.

Raven later posted:
-------------------------------
By peaning the cam you are enlarging the diameter of the cam this can cause a change in the relationship of the bolt to the cylinder.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think Lil Red meant "peening this cam ever so slightly" as in gently tapping the backside of the press-fit cam so as to push it 1 or 2 thousands further out, thus gaining a larger ledge (top of the cam) for better engagement. No new part is need, no change in the part size, just gently repositioning that part. (By the way, I would never have thought of such a thing and actually think it is rather brilliant)

I think Raven misunderstood and thought the intention was to "pean the cam" like a blacksmith peans the end of a rivet to mushroom it out, which would make the cam bigger in diameter, and lead to the problems he mentioned.

That changes the entire meaning of the discussion as neither gent follows what the other is intending, and I fear the misunderstanding has led to some hard feelings.

I pray that by sticking my nose into this I am not ruffling any feathers, and I hope my attempt at explanation may perhaps clear things up, and has not muddled anything further, or caused any further upset....

yhs
prof marvel
(it's a marvel he can't keep his nose to hisself)

[Montana Slim]

Ok, feel free to disregard everything I posted. No offense will be taken here.

For anyone interested, here are some additional thoughts:
1) Regarding the method of placing the gun on 1/2 cock to remove/install:

That method is ideal for Colt revolvers having the 2-pawl hand. The Remington hand is longer and without the 2nd pawl. It will tend to hang-up the cylinder a bit more than the method I describe. Some guns will plumb jam-up with the 1/2 cock method.

2)Regarding replacement of cams:

Dixie Gun Works...use the ones for Colt models 

3) Regarding loading 6 rounds:

Yup, loading 6 and putting the hammer down in-between can lead to a blemish on the cylinder...but why be concerned about a blemish on the finish. I consider them a tool. The original percussion guns were intended to be loaded with 6 and I have found this safe to do with my replica 44 & 36 Remington and Colt revolvers. YMMV.

Regards,
Slim