WaddWatsonEllis Belduque WIP

Started by Josh Dabney, February 16, 2010, 08:52:47 AM

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Josh Dabney

Damascus UPDATE:

I just got off the phone with the maker of the damascus and he is going to provide a replacement billet !!!   HOORAY !!!

As suspected there was a flaw in the weld that caused the delamination so another billet will be made tomorrow and shipped out asap. 

Also in credit to the fellow is that he's also going to return the original blade that can be put to use in the making of a smaller blade. 

As it stands we'll be back on track before you know it and having the original steel to sorta compensate me for work that went into the original blade is unexpected but certainly welcomed.  Sometimes thing seem to just workout for the best all on their own  ;D

-Josh

WaddWatsonEllis

Huzzah and HUZZAH!

When one thinks of all the possible outcomes that might have happened, it is looking like you got the best result that could have occurred (other than the knife not having the void in the first place ...).

And when you are carving your next roast with your Damascene carving knife, just think of the anecdote you can weave ... 'As a matter of fact, this here knife started it's life to be entirely different ...."

I have been praying, keeping my fingers crossed , petting my rabbit's foot and saying novenas (and I am not even that religion! *S*) that this was what would happen ... I am so pleased for you!

And will you do a WIP on the 'mistake' as well? I know I would love to see it take life too!

P.S. the pic below is not really a Belduque, but a South American cousin called the Punal Croillo ... but it is so pretty that I just wanted to show it....
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

GunClick Rick

When you say weld,is that a hammered fold?How to you mean the term weld???? :-[ I never knew that damasscuss had so much to think about,me being the layman i just see purty.. :)
Bunch a ole scudders!

WaddWatsonEllis

Rick,

Although this article has the faults found in much of wikipedia, the information in it seems to be correct and give a good overview of the Damascening process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

Probably fairly rare in the American West, I am guessing that a trade Damascene Belduque could probably have found its way into the hands of a Californio ... probably. There were good trading connections through Mexico and many of the ports of South America, eventually connecting to Spanish traders.

Besides, I have always wanted a big Damascene knife ... I have a wootz steel Indian made Bowie that Chuck Burrows was kind enough to 'antique' for me (again, the chance of owning a Damascene Bowie in the 1870s would be extremely low ... I just wanted one ...)

But when it came up that I would need an Hispanic Belduque for my Californio outfit, I thought: 1.) about how most of the finished products for Californios were imported, and 2.) That a Californio would try to only have the best in fittings and horse, and  3.) That there were established trade routes from Californio all the way back to Spain ....

Hence the Damascene Belduque (and the fact that I am not unlike the Californios in that I would rather get the best and live on beans to afford it ... {and I wonder why I am divorced ... *S*}).
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

GunClick Rick

 :D Two good lessons :D :D I know what ya mean though,i like them Bush beans myself,served with saltines ;)
Bunch a ole scudders!

Josh Dabney

GCR,

We sure are taliking about a forge weld that is hammered (or pressed with a hydraulic press) together. 

Here's a basic example of how a billet is made.  The billet will start as a stack of 2 or more alternating layers of steel.  Say 3 layers of 5160 and 2 layers of 15N20.  These layers will be cut from 2" x 1/4" x 5" flat bar giving a stack thats 2" x 1 1/4" x 5". 

Now the stack will be stitched up the corners with a Mig or Arc weld to hold the stack together while in the forge getting to welding heat.  Commonly a rebar handle will also be welded on.           

Now the billet will go into the forge. The billet also has to be fluxed while comming up to heat. Flux is a powder thats sprinkled on the hot billet that turns to liquid when it hits the steel.  The purpose of this is to keep oxygen from comming into contact with the inside and creating scale.  If scale forms on the inside of the billet it will end being a flaw like an inclusion.

When up to welding heat (2300 degrees) the billet  is hammered with a power hammer or squeezed in a press to make the billet weld.  Each place the two steels meet each other is a weld so in our 5 layer billet we start with 4 forge welded surfaces.

Now the forge welded billet is drawn out. for our example lets say that it's drawn out to a 1" square 12 inches long.  We still have 5 flat layers  in our billet.

Now the billet will be cut in half and re-stacked and begin the initial process again. Now we'll have a 10 layer billet.  Then 20, 40, 80, 160, etc until the desired layer count is reached. 

There are many different ways to manipulate the steel to create the pattern at this point. 

Lets say we do a twist pattern.  The billet will now be drawn out to a one inch bar and actually twisted up  then hammered flat.  Now we have a twist pattern billet. 

Now there are many variations of the twist pattern.  One popular thing is to make a multi-bar twist pattern.  To do this instead of flattening after twisting we would have drawn our twisted billet out to say a 1/2" square bar then cut into 4 pieces ansd stacked and welded the finall billet with the twists arranged in opposing patterns.

Remember that each time a forge weld is made the sufaces to be welded have to be free of scale thats created in the forge.  Also the Mig or Arc welds must be ground away to prevent flaws or a spot of low carbon steel in the billet.

This gives a general idea of how damascus is made.

-Josh

                   

WaddWatsonEllis

Josh,

I bow to your explanation ... far better than I could aspire to ....

The main place that Damascus steel might have been seen in the West was probably in fine English Shotguns.

A Damascene barrel was seen as the ultimate barrel by many fine English shotgun makers ....

http://www.lcsmith.org/shotguns/1880grades.html
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

GunClick Rick

I have been duley,dooley,doolly---thourally --? I am now smarter than i was,thanks Josh.. :) :)

I wished that show was still on tv where it was about forges and steel making,i loved that program,it had  different smiths on it.
Bunch a ole scudders!

Forty Rod

Quote from: GunClick Rick on February 26, 2010, 10:09:15 PM
I have been duley,dooley,doolly---thourally --? I am now smarter than i was,thanks Josh.. :) :)

You want to join me in a vaudeville act?
People like me are the reason people like you have the right to bitch about people like me.

santee

I have been following these Belduque threads for a month, now. I'm really taken by this knife. Josh's representation is going to be a masterpiece, for sure.
One reason I like it because it's different from the frontier bowie style, which is so common with reenactors and CAS. You can bet I'll be saving up for a Belduque!
Historian at Old Tucson
SASS #2171
STORM #371
RATS #431
True West Maniac #1261

GunClick Rick

Quote from: Forty Rod on February 26, 2010, 10:45:48 PM
You want to join me in a vaudeville act?

Dooley livin in a holler,Duley tryin ta make a dollar,gonna marry her someday~~~~~ ;D Tell "em" Goober says hey~tsk'~
Bunch a ole scudders!

Sir Charles deMouton-Black

If you compare a Belduque or a Criollo to a SEARLES Bowie I think there is more than a coincidental similarity.

Especially if you look at that little scallop between the guard and the blade on the Searles. What we have here is whether there is a guard - or not!

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,30761.0.html
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

WaddWatsonEllis

There does seem to be a common ancestor for the Bowie and the 'Creole' (Criollo) knives. And it was the Belduque/Criollo that started making both the top and blade side of knives into cutting surfaces ... as does the Bowie ...

But it is not my wisdom or knowledge that can cause that missing link knife to be found ....
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

GunClick Rick

What is the scallop for?Just identifying mark or some use?
Bunch a ole scudders!

Sir Charles deMouton-Black

My theory is that it is meant to be kind to the second phalanges of your knife hand.  Then it becomes stylized.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

WaddWatsonEllis

Rick,

I haven't a clue about the scallop ... it is seen on some Belduques and seems to be missing on others ...
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

Sir Charles deMouton-Black

Those are some nice Belduques WWE.  Take a look at the outer two of the three damascus blades.  The scallop is there, but the arc extends over most of the back of the blade
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

WaddWatsonEllis

Sir Charles,

I remain clueless ... but there is a tradition of a paisley like cutout on the back of the blades to be sure ....

But I will refer this question to Josh Dabney, 'cause I have never seen anyone address this design in any history of the Belduque I have ever read ...

And, come to think of it, if I am wearing it as a docent, I am sure I will be asked about that particular part of the design.

So Josh, whatever you say I am going to parrot to the people I will be docent to ....

BTW, several of those knives are off people's web pages ... the one with the blue-ish sheath with heart is from Chris's Knives ( http://www.whirlwindtraders.com/chrisknifepage.html ), and the group of three knives if from the Delaronde webpage ( http://www.delarondeforge.com/Knives.htm )
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

Sir Charles deMouton-Black

Wadd;  I think you know this site quite well;

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

About the middle, under the discussion of the PUNALE, this author also makes the connection of these Southern European/Latin American knives may have a common heritage with the Searles style of bowie.

I don`t know the origin of the scallop, but assume that "form follows function".  An edged weapon used for stabbing requires protection for the users hand. A guard or basket is sometimes used, but these weapons merely dropped the blade and profiled the rear of the blade to protect the hand.  Some of the Argentine knives, whether Facon, Punale, or Criollo, have the scallop, and some don't.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

GunClick Rick

Maybe they are for pulling gold off the tooth of the deceased :-X
Bunch a ole scudders!

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