Damascus

[GunClick Rick]

Do you sharpen a handmade damascus blade different than others?A friend that has an antique store has a nice patch knife with handmade damascus blade.Think i might do some tradin fer it,it's a nice anlter damacuss,very well made.Nice fold lines and file work.

[Dave Cole]

Rick, sharpen it as you would all others.Now where you remove metal it will also remove the etching so it will be shiney.If thats ok your done.If you want the etch redone on the edge, you will need some Ferric Chloride (circuit board etchant from Radio Shack) mixed with some water ( I use about a 50-50 mix).Dab it on with a Q-tip and let it sit until the color comes back to match and then spray the blade down with Windex or window cleaner with ammonia and dry.Some use Muratic for this instead of FC but it is quite a bit more volatile to work with. But use the proper precautions with both chemicals, plenty of ventilation, glasses and gloves.Contact me if you have any questions.Dave   

[GunClick Rick]

Well i did some swappin and this is what i got.Already had the edge on it.Thanks very much for the education Dave.

[GunClick Rick]

Ain't no good??

[St. George]

The modern-day spacers throw things off quite a bit for me - along with the hilt.

It's too 'modern' - not 'Old West'.

That, and I was never enthralled by 'buckskinner' doo-dads.

There's an awful lot of Damascus available, today - much of it coming out of India - this looks llike one of the offerings from Dixie from a couple of catalogs back.

If 'you' like it and got a fair deal on it, then be happy with your swap - but if you got it just because it was a Damascus blade, then you may want to keep looking.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Dave Cole]

Hard to tell Rick, but I suspect that St.George is right. Don't look that bad to me and if you like it and the price, then have some fun with it.
He is definately right about the amount of damascus out there and the amount coming in from overseas.They have a tendency to put in unknown steels or steels that don't mix well together, so you usually get what you pay for.If you notice most of those Damascus knives or blanks sell for $50 or under,that should tell you, its probably not US made.

There are however quite a few quality damascus makers here in the US.Be prepared to pay $10-$20 an inch for the good stuff and that is for an uncut billet. With these makers the patterns available are endless.The Damascus maker I am using now is Chad Nichols, and he's extremely creative  with his, super guy too  http://www.chadsknivesanddamascus.com/

Hope this helps.Dave

[WaddWatsonEllis]

FWIW,

I have never had anyone come up to me and comment about whether my kit was historically accurate ... in fact, I have seen modern Randall and K-bar products riding in a leather sheath on a gunbelt.

Although we all try to be as historically correct as possible, my namesake would probably have been carrying a breechloading shotgun and, if he owned any at all, ONE cap and Ball revolver of some kind. Not two pistols, a Model 87 and a Model 73...

So I feel like the members above ... if it brings you fun, if it looks period from ten feet, well enjoy!

And we won't even go near talking about the 'historical correctness' of the revamped three wheeled ex-stroller guncarts or the people lounging underneath the canopy of their Winnebagos, sitting in plastic Adirondack chairs ....

[GunClick Rick]

I'm not real crazy about the style either but it was the best one i had seen in a while so i thought i would ad it to the shelf goods display.Wait till ya see the next one i get,it's NASTY!  It's a bigin too.

[St. George]

Given that this forum's more concerned with period knives and knives made like the originals were, let's try to keep it to those styles, OK?

I don't have any problem whatsoever in keeping things on track with the 'delete' key.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[WaddWatsonEllis]

I stand corrected. Mea Culpa.

[Books OToole]

I'm curious;  Can anybody document a Damascus blade in the old west?
[Old West = 1860-1900 & west of the Mississippi.]

Inquiring minds want to know.

Books

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Books,

This is just a hunch, but Toledo Steel (i.e. from a variation of the Damascus process) was the bees knees for rapiers, foils and such and was respected throughout the Latin world and its colonies. Although some English shotguns used damascene or Toledo processes, I am guessing that the name would have been much more of a selling point in a an hispanic country ...

http://www.swordsfromtoledo.com/history.htm

[The Elderly Kid]

The mines near Toledo were producing iron that made superior sword steel as far back as Roman times. Getting control of those mines was as much an aim of Roman aggression as cutting off Hannibal's support from Africa. They liked it so much that they adopted their "gladius hispaniensis," (Spanish sword) from the Iberians. Some of these were of damascus construction but even simple-forged Spanish swords were better than anything produced by the Romans.

[Dave Cole]

I'm curious;  Can anybody document a Damascus blade in the old west?
[Old West = 1860-1900 & west of the Mississippi.]

Inquiring minds want to know.

Books

I don't know if this link will help you , but I have seen gun barrels from that era done.
http://damascus.free.fr/f_damas/hist.htm

Also if you read Chuck Burrows thread here , he offers up some info. One big problem is that the "damascus" being produced is really and should be called" pattern-welded steel", it's just picked up the name and it stuck.So you have "wootz" steel, "San-Mai" steel and Pattern welded.You can also throw another one in the mix with  "Mokume" which is a forged mixture of non-ferrous metals such as copper,brass, and nickel silver.Dave

[GunClick Rick]

What about Samuri swords,were they not made by but a few of the best families that were known for such?

We had a guy come through town once that was buying up swords that had come to this country as souvaniers after the war.My father in law had passed and ma needed money so i went with my sis in law to the motel where he was staying,the sword i had, had been cut down at the handle,there were circles cut in the handle under the wood which i thought was like a signature of the maker,they would cut them down to fit the individual.
The sheath was covered in cherry wood bark as was the handle,still had the bumps where the stems grew.I probably could have asked any amount for it,this guy had a satchel full of money and he threw 500.00 down and out of respect i guess i let it go at that,had to go through an interprature and they were both japanese,the guy with the money must have been someone of power and it was like i should not speak directly to him,i took the money reluctantly and he gestured at me with a nod and the go between said he was very pleased.
My sis in law asked if we got enough and i told her,ya got more than ya had.There was a large pile of swords up against the wall behind him too,i said goodbye and we left.I had a japanes silk flag in my inside coat pocket and would have gave it to him but did not know the protocall of such doings,didn't want to affend,i gave it to an old soldier that had a small museum of war stuff,was told it was a pilots flag,one red circle no beams on white silk.
Sorry for strayin off topic a bit.Interesting reading on those links..

[WaddWatsonEllis]

This is what I have been told, and I have no verification of what I was told ...

But my source is a Japanese American friend who is very skilled at Bushido and Kendo (The art of the sword).

He says that the Japanese had also discovered that art of Damascus, but had another name for it ...

According to my friend, it was this process that accounted for the strength of Japanese steel and blades ...

Again, I'm just sayin ... anyone with verification?

[St. George]

Staying 'on point' seems to be a real problem for this thread.

If information's going to be offered up - do some simple research first, since the various 'martial artists' are wrapped up in their versions of history and too much is hearsay.

If someone goes to one of the 'motel guys' - be advised that much of it's stage dressing - and those artifacts are being artfully arranged for maximum visual impact - and sometimes, they even hire 'wise old men' to pontificate about things, when they ply their hustle.

Were 'damascus' blades available during the era - even faked ones?

Sure - somewhere...

Were they used oin the American West and actually mentioned by name?

I've never seen any sort of reference beyond something in a Louis L'Amour book or two, when one of his characters was carrying a 'blade'.

Japanese blades are a study unto themselves - there are scholarly tomes dedicated to their idiosyncracies.

So are those knives actually associated with the American Frontier - and we're most concerned with those types and styles.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Josh Dabney]

This is a great discussion !
Since I'm a knifemaker it is of particular interest to me.

Period correct-  I understand this to mean, an object produced with materials and technology available for the time period.

I would love others opinions on this "definition" of mine.

I do tend to agree with St.George that there probably weren't many ninjas running around with their MYSTICAL swords. (misinformation galore on the subject of Japanese blades out there)

However oversees travel was common during this era so it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilty for knives of this type to have been in the Old West, they certainly were in Japan.

Damascus, (pattern welded not wootz)- Lets stick with some with basic facts and see what conclusions logic gives.
The process of pattern welding was well known during this era and was in fact in use for shotgun barrels
The process for making damascus was never LOST, just out of favor for some time BEFORE the 19th century
Edited to add this link     http://damascus-barrels.com/Time_Line.html

Conclusion-The information on pattern welding WAS available during the 19th century

Really all thats needed to make damascus is two types of steel (one with enough carbon to harden and another), a forge, anvil, and hammer.  Blacksmiths of the 19th century were very skilled individuals not only shoe-ing ponys but also making things like nails, hinges, belt buckles, etc. etc. etc.  Any local blacksmith worth a salt could make a damascus knife out of a RR spike and a piece of wrought iron.  Damascus isn't difficult to make it's just very labor intensive.

I would agree that damascus knives we're probably uncommon in the USA during the 19th century but would also say I would consider any random or twist (ladder) pattern to be Period Correct.

On to the original posters knife.  Looks to be made of steel, antler, brass, and red spacer material () The red is probably something modern, however red leather spacers wouldn't have been a problem back then.  Not necessarily my personal taste but it looks like a knife any blacksmith COULD have made in 1801.  

Thats my take on the discussion thus far Pards.  Some of the ideas are my personal opinion and I welcome any further discussion of them... even you think I'm flat out wrong and crazy I'd like to hear what yall think.

-Josh  

.

[The Elderly Kid]

I've seen a single photo of a 19th century Bowie purported to have been made in India. I've further read that Bowies were made in British India, shipped to England and from there to America during the great Bowie craze of the early 19th century. Why the Brits should do this when Sheffield was a world capital of cutlery is a definitely "coals to Newcastle" problem. Maybe somebody saw a way to undercut the Sheffield cartel. I've never handled one of these Indian Bowies so I don't know if any of them were of Wootz steel, but it's a possibility and that would be a sort of Damascus or pattern-welding or what have you.

[GunClick Rick]

I was just wondering about the blade on this one and if it was in fact pounded and folded.I can see the pattern on the edges of the knife and looks like file work on the top like i have seen makers do, and it is antler and modern stuff probably made by a reinactor or for such for a patch knife.Just lookin for info.