Author Topic: Historic Photos/GAF weapons  (Read 205649 times)

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #320 on: November 04, 2014, 07:22:06 PM »
I believe the picture of the German Marine was captioned as being from around 1880 per the original source, but I only saved the picture to my photobucket account, not the caption. I assume the picture is somewhat later than 1880 after reading subsequent posts.

To tell the truth, I didn't even notice the watch! ;D

Offline HOROLOGIST007

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #321 on: November 04, 2014, 08:27:19 PM »
I believe the picture of the German Marine was captioned as being from around 1880 per the original source, but I only saved the picture to my photobucket account, not the caption. I assume the picture is somewhat later than 1880 after reading subsequent posts.

To tell the truth, I didn't even notice the watch! ;D

Hi Charles
Thanks for posting back.
Can you or anyone give any thought on a date.
1885?  1890? 1900?
Based on gun and uniform.
Do you remember the scource?

Thanks everyones help.
I will post a few greats for you, ALL with wristwatches!


Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #322 on: November 04, 2014, 08:44:59 PM »
Adam:

I composed an e-mail and tried to send it last night with the file attached, and a few other tidbits included, but had lost my internet connection, so it just got dumped into the "outbox" of my e-mail program.  I still had no internet connection this morning, so got on the phone with my cable/phone/internet Service Dept., at which time they determined remotely that my internet "hookup/modem/wi-fi/router thingy" had failed, and I was instructed to take the old one in to their business office here in town to get a replacement. Got that done this afternoon and finally got it hooked up, and am back on the internet as of this evening.  As soon as I saw your message here I went to my e-mail outbox and saw that the message (which I assumed would go out automatically once I was back online) was still sitting there.  Had to click the "send" button again before it would go out.  Anyway, you should have it by the time you see this forum reply.    ;D
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #323 on: Today at 04:48:23 AM »

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #323 on: November 04, 2014, 08:56:18 PM »
My best guess on the German Marine would be the latter 1880's .... or early 1890's at the latest.  I base that on the fact that Germany adopted a new rifle (the "Commission" rifle) in 1888, and a further new Mauser design in 1898, so it seems unlikely to me that anyone but Reserves (and the like) would be still armed with an 1871 or 1871/84 rifle much beyond the time-frame suggested ....
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline HOROLOGIST007

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #324 on: November 04, 2014, 10:18:10 PM »
My best guess on the German Marine would be the latter 1880's .... or early 1890's at the latest.  I base that on the fact that Germany adopted a new rifle (the "Commission" rifle) in 1888, and a further new Mauser design in 1898, so it seems unlikely to me that anyone but Reserves (and the like) would be still armed with an 1871 or 1871/84 rifle much beyond the time-frame suggested ....

Hi
First
Got your email - thanks, I will print and study to-morrow.
At quick glance I own all those pieces, I have a number of learther pocket watch convertors, I have the Mappin "campaign" watch and a 1906 "conventional" wristwatch.
I have over 100 original photographs from 1898 to 1940.
I will post some here.

Now if that picture is 1888, it is still amazingly early, and possible one of the earliest photos of any man wearing a watch on their wrist
Sincerely thanks all your info and help
A

Offline pony express

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #325 on: November 04, 2014, 10:55:25 PM »
RSJ, the  rifle in the picture appears to me to be an 1871 single shot, the stock doesn't look deep enough to be the tube magazine of the 1871/84. I'm not sure how long the German Navy retained the single shots, but they did have 71/84's during the Boxer Rebellion. Perhaps some ships were still equipped with single shots?
German colonial troops in Africa were still mostly armed with BP Mausers at the outbreak of WW1, with native troops mostly carrying the single shots.
Looking at the background in the picture, looks like a dugout of some kind, Maybe early in WW1, in the trenches?
But perhaps it's a staged photo, seeing he has a rifle, blanket roll, S-71 sword bayonet and a dagger, but no cartridge pouch.

Offline HOROLOGIST007

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #326 on: November 05, 2014, 06:32:06 AM »
RSJ, the  rifle in the picture appears to me to be an 1871 single shot, the stock doesn't look deep enough to be the tube magazine of the 1871/84. I'm not sure how long the German Navy retained the single shots, but they did have 71/84's during the Boxer Rebellion. Perhaps some ships were still equipped with single shots?
German colonial troops in Africa were still mostly armed with BP Mausers at the outbreak of WW1, with native troops mostly carrying the single shots.
Looking at the background in the picture, looks like a dugout of some kind, Maybe early in WW1, in the trenches?
But perhaps it's a staged photo, seeing he has a rifle, blanket roll, S-71 sword bayonet and a dagger, but no cartridge pouch.
Hi thanks your input.
From close looking, I do not believe this is a "stage" shot, its real OK.
WWI trench?  I don't think so.
If you were to date it based on the rifle what period i.e since the 71/84 was used by Boxer Rebellion, can we put this picture prior or after that?
Finally can we tell anything from the dagger or his cap?

Thanks again
Adam

Offline pony express

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #327 on: November 05, 2014, 06:40:21 PM »
I posted a question on the GermanSailor over on Axis History Forum, maybe I can get more info there.

Offline HOROLOGIST007

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #328 on: November 05, 2014, 07:06:17 PM »
I posted a question on the GermanSailor over on Axis History Forum, maybe I can get more info there.
Thanks, I would appreciate that.
Its an important photo if we can narrow down to even +/- 5 years
Regards

Offline sail32

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #329 on: November 06, 2014, 10:44:25 AM »
I would think the German marine is holding a 1871 Mauser based on the long bayonet.

The Japanese are holding Murata rifles.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=japanese+murata+rifle+images&qpvt=japanese+murata+rifle+images&FORM=IGRE

Offline HOROLOGIST007

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #330 on: November 06, 2014, 10:56:38 AM »
I would think the German marine is holding a 1871 Mauser based on the long bayonet.

The Japanese are holding Murata rifles.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=japanese+murata+rifle+images&qpvt=japanese+murata+rifle+images&FORM=IGRE

So can you help date them, especially the German one.
Even a range would help
Thanks, really appreciate all efforts.
A

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #331 on: November 06, 2014, 12:59:04 PM »
Think "band springs" when trying to tell an M1871 from an M1871/84  ;)


Offline HOROLOGIST007

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #332 on: November 06, 2014, 01:03:13 PM »
Think "band springs" when trying to tell an M1871 from an M1871/84  ;)



Any dating based on a 1871?

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #333 on: November 06, 2014, 01:54:28 PM »
The Japanese are holding Murata rifles.

Actually, wouldn't they be the Arisaka rifle, introduced in 1897?  My understanding is that the only magazine-fed versions of the Murata rifle had tube magazines.  Certainly the chap with the wristwatch has an Arisaka, as he is charging its box magazine from a stripper clip .....  Mind you, we were already pretty sure that this photo dated to about the Boxer Rebellion .....

Adam:

The problem with identifying the German rifle as a Model 1871, of course, is that it doesn't help much with the "near end" of the possible time range of the photograph, since "obsolete" weapons stayed in service (at least with "auxiliary" and "second line" forces, and the like) for long periods after more modern weapons had been introduced.  Although identified as a "marine", I have actually been wondering if this chap is perhaps a German sailor kitted out for shore duty, rather than a marine - e.g. that looks like a sailor's "jumper" he is wearing, not something a "soldier" would wear.  In other words, I would expect a "marine" to have a fairly up-to-date rifle, (and to be uniformed and kitted out more like a soldier) but the arms kept aboard ships to arm shore patrols of sailors were much more likely to be older patterns, as Pony Express has already suggested ..... Unfortunately, I don't know enough about German forces of the period unfortunately, which is why a more informed response may follow from the posting on the Axis History forum
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline HOROLOGIST007

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #334 on: November 06, 2014, 02:00:39 PM »
Thanks, all most interesting.
I personally doubt 1800, but I would love to work out if pre 1900?
thanks to all

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #335 on: November 06, 2014, 02:02:30 PM »
Any dating based on a 1871?



A date based on the rifle would be impossible Sir. A lot of points have already been brought up by Pony Express, Rattlesnake Jack and others.

IF the German Navy was anything like the US Navy was during that era, the German Marines/Sailors may only have had available whatever rifles, obsolete or not, that were on the ship they were on.

As an example, logistics for the US Marines that landed in China as part of the Relief Expedition must have been a living nightmare! They were armed with several different types and caliber of obsolete and modern rifles. As I remember, these included-

M1870 50-70 cal Remington "rolling blocks"

M1884 45-70 cal "trapdoor" Springfields and various bolt actions in this caliber too

M1895 6mm "straight pulls"

M1898 30-40 cal Krag Jorgensens

Understandably, Naval officers are generally more worried about the ship itself being upgraded etc. not the small arms in the arms locker. The Master at Arms may have given his recommendation that the ships crew be upgraded to, say, M1898 Mausers, but the Officers are much more educated  ........................... ..........................oh, nevermind   :D :D :D





Offline HOROLOGIST007

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #336 on: November 06, 2014, 02:05:35 PM »
Thanks everyone
Personally I did not think 1880, but I would like to see if its prior to 1900.
Thanks for everyones input
a

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #337 on: November 06, 2014, 04:14:42 PM »
I am now pretty much convinced that the purported German "marine" ("Seesoldat") in the above photo is in fact a sailor ("Matrose") on some sort of shore duty or land expedition ..... which, unfortunately, means that he would be more likely to be armed with a Model 1871 rifle a lot later than would a Seesoldat .....

I found this 1880's photograph of a German Navy sailor attached to the Naval Artillery.  (The full cap tally apparently read: KAISERL. MATR. ARTILLERIE", short for "Kaiserliche Matrosen Artillerie", which translates literally as "Imperial Sailors Artillery".)



Anyway, note the style of his cap, which is the same as worn by the chap with the wristlet watch.  There was also this comment about his shirt: "His shirt is the blue woolen winter naval top ('Wollenes Hemd' or woolen shirt) with removable naval collar in a lighter shade of blue with three white stripes ...." (Emphasis added by me, considering that the chap with the watch has no such collar, but his shirt certainly otherwise looks the part ....)

Marine Infantrymen (Seesoldaten), on the other hand, would have been more likely to have a "military-style uniform", with some sort of tunic, as worn by these chaps in China -



- and I gather that their headgear was noticeably different .... either a peaked cap or an un-peaked field cap, such as worn by these Seesoldaten -



I found these images on a very extensive website dealing with "German Colonial Uniforms" .... which has a great deal of information on both Seesoldaten and Matrosen, since they were also very often used in German colonies and foreign expeditions.   I gather from my cursory look that the general styles of uniforms for Marine Infantry and sailors didn't change all that much through the German Imperial period (i.e. about 1870 through 1918) which doesn't help much with fixing a date for the "mystery German watchwearer".  However, I barely scratched the surface there, so if anyone wants to give the site a more complete search, it is here:  http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #338 on: November 06, 2014, 05:47:53 PM »


Here is another website calling the guy a Marine, or, "Kaiserliches Marinekorps",  I don't know. No Idea. But he sure does look like a crazy mf'r,  like you better be ready for things to get real wild really fast if you piss him off.

Someone else started this. Someone might be pullin a Colonel Pitsptr, like when he kept calling Colonel Drydock "a Marine"- Bunch of tricksters around here sometimes I tell ya! ;D


Ennyways, maybe this will have some dates and references.


http://www.bajonett.de/WK1-Galerie/Marineinfanterie-Schutztruppen/WK3.5-Soldat.htm





Offline Charles Isaac

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #339 on: November 06, 2014, 06:02:42 PM »

EDIT: Oops!  Rattlesnake Jack already posted this site-



http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/militaria/mab.htm






Cover picture Captioned-

   "A naval soldier's other ranks cap with the tally reading "Kaiserliches Marinekorps".




Shirt picture captioned-

"A naval top as worn by soldiers of the Marinekorps Flandern. Note the wound badge on the left breast."


 

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