Author Topic: Historic Photos/GAF weapons  (Read 153958 times)

Offline Delmonico

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2009, 10:52:29 am »
Winchester-Hotchkiss I believe.  Bolt action, 2 piece stock.  Experimental issue in the Southwest. The Scout up top has a Trapdoor, the other scout looks like a Winchester 73.

I knew I couldn't fool you, neat picture though.
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2009, 10:56:50 am »
Well, the "crossed axes surmounted by a bomb" badge does seem to have signified a Pioneer. 
Here is another image I located under the file name "SAPEURS" -  note they have the same device on their sleeves .......



(They are also armed with Chassepot rifles, by the way .....)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2009, 11:19:03 am »
Found this image captioned "Khyber Rifles 1895".  Despite the late date, note that they are armed with .577 Snider-Enfield rifles .....
which is entirely in keeping with British policy, following the 1857 Bengal Mutiny, to equip native troops with obsolete firearms, at least
one design behind what was issued to British Regulars.  In this case, they are actually  two designs behind, since the British Army
had in 1888 adopted the Lee-Metford magazine rifle to supplant the Martini-Henry .....

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2009, 01:06:23 pm »
Winchester-Hotchkiss I believe.  Bolt action, 2 piece stock.  Experimental issue in the Southwest. The Scout up top has a Trapdoor, the other scout looks like a Winchester 73.
The receiver on the Winchester looks pretty long. Might it be a '76 or is it's length just an optical illusion?
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2009, 01:09:56 pm »
The receiver on the Winchester looks pretty long. Might it be a '76 or is it's length just an optical illusion?

Was my thought also.
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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #85 on: Today at 04:26:55 pm »

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2009, 01:12:07 pm »
OK a few more from Butcher and the Nebraska National Guard in 1904-05, BTW these were taken at Ft. Kearny after the buildings were gone and before it was a historical site.

Posting a new guard:



Three officers outside a tent:




Could someone more knowledgeable than me about post turn of the century US army uniforms please coment on these uniforms, especially the center man of the three officers outside a tent? The blouse looks like the M-1899 enlisted blouse. I'm thinking I'd like to go with the Nebraska National Guard for my Expansion Era Match uniform.
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2009, 01:18:43 pm »
Well, someone should know more, but like today they kinda got the bottom of the barrel from the supply system.  Although I have heard they were one of the first NG units to get Krags, but that has to do with the Lakota Reservations just over the border.

I've heard Minnisota used trapdoors till 1940.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2009, 03:13:21 pm »
They all appear enlsted, or wearing an enlisted uniform.  The one in the center definatily is wearing the M1899 enlisted Kahki Uniform, as do most all in the previous pictures.  The outer two appear to be wearing wool, and could be the later M1912 wool drab uniform.  However, they both have roll collars, which the 1912 did NOT have, so i'm a bit puzzled.  They look like M1899s made up in drab wool. (which was what the M1912 really was, but with a standing military collar instead of the rolled collar on the enlisted version.)  They're all wearing the 1904 russet belts, and the sabre handles date later as well.  I'd put them around 1912/13 perhaps.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Delmonico

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2009, 03:21:16 pm »
They all appear enlsted, not Officer.  The one in the center definatily is wearing the M1899 enlisted Kahki Uniform, as do most in the previous pictures.  The outer two appear to be wearing wool, and could be the later M1912 wool drab uniform.

I was just going off the notes for it.
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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2009, 04:34:05 pm »
They all appear enlsted, or wearing an enlisted uniform.  The one in the center definatily is wearing the M1899 enlisted Kahki Uniform, as do most all in the previous pictures.  The outer two appear to be wearing wool, and could be the later M1912 wool drab uniform.  However, they both have roll collars, which the 1912 did NOT have, so i'm a bit puzzled.  They look like M1899s made up in drab wool. (which was what the M1912 really was, but with a standing military collar instead of the rolled collar on the enlisted version.)  They're all wearing the 1904 russet belts, and the sabre handles date later as well.  I'd put them around 1912/13 perhaps.
Span-Am and later is a bit outside of my expertise, but that's about what I thought.... Except for the fact that Solomon Butcher viewed his photography a document in history and was known for his meticulous notes. If he wrote that they were taken in 1905 and were officers, I'd take that as gospil. Could a National Guard unit have had uniform regulations that perscribed a US GI enlisted man's uniform for it's officers. I would think that would be extremely unpopular with the officers. ::) ???

What is the disk ahead of the crossed rifles? Which brings up another question. If they are indeed enlisted infantry (Crossed rifles) why would they have sabres?
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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #90 on: Today at 04:26:55 pm »

Offline Delmonico

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #90 on: November 15, 2009, 04:47:34 pm »
Jerry, I have found a couple pictures in the Butcher Collection that I might question a few things, but only a very few. 
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #91 on: November 15, 2009, 05:31:14 pm »
I assumed they were enlisted cavalry.  But looking closer, those do not look like standard cavalry sabres.  The crossed appliance could be a crossed rifle and sabre, the device for Militia.  These could be Militia staff officers, at least 2 in custom uniforms.  That could explain the collars and the new issue belts.  Could the round device  be a Nebraska coat of arms?
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Texas Lawdog

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #92 on: November 15, 2009, 06:46:48 pm »
Drydock, That sounds like a research job for Delmonico!
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #93 on: November 16, 2009, 02:03:15 pm »
These two images were just listed on eBay -



Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Leo Tanner

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #94 on: November 16, 2009, 03:26:55 pm »
Good work RJ!  Those are both excellant photos.
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Offline Texas Lawdog

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2009, 05:50:11 pm »
I hope to purchase bayonets for both my Trapdoor and Krag in the near future. Great pictures of the uniforms and rifles. Thanks, Rattlesnake Jack!
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2009, 05:56:46 pm »
Drydock, That sounds like a research job for Delmonico!

I think Mustang Greg needs this assignment. ;)
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Offline Texas Lawdog

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2009, 06:14:10 pm »
Mustang Gregg might have better access to that info.
SASS#47185  RO I   ROII       NCOWS#2244  NCOWS Life #186  BOLD#393 GAF#318 SCORRS#1 SBSS#1485  WASA#666  RATS#111  BOSS#155  Storm#241 Henry 1860#92 W3G#1000  Warthog AZSA #28  American Plainsmen Society #69  Masonic Cowboy Shootist  Hiram's Rangers#18  FOP  Lt. Col  Grand Army of The Frontier, Life Member CAF
   Col.  CAF  NRA  TSRA   BOA  Dooley Gang  BOPP  ROWSS  Scarlet Mask Vigilance Society Great Lakes Freight and Mining Company  Cow Cracker Cavalry   Berger Sharpshooters "I had no Irons in the Fire". "Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie"?

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #98 on: November 16, 2009, 08:56:32 pm »
Canadian Infantrymen during the 1885 North West Rebellion.  All rifles seen in these photos are .577 Snider-Enfields, with the exception of the Winchester held by the chap reclining, left front, in the second photograph.  That picture was taken at Medicine Hat (where I live) so the Infantryman would be members of the Company stationed here from the Halifax (Nova Scotia) Provisional Battalion, and the fellow with the Winchester is likely a Rocky Mountain Ranger ....

       
     
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Grapeshot

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Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #99 on: November 25, 2009, 04:58:34 pm »
Makes ya wonder what happened to those old 3" ordnance rifles (last produced in 1865!)

A lot were converted to 3.2 inch breech loading cannons by re-boreing and re-rifling to 3.2 inch and installing a Krupp type sliding breech block.  Thyey were mounted on new steel cariages.

If you are artillery history buffs, 3.2 inchs is the bore size of our 81 mm mortars.
Listen!  Do you hear that?  The roar of Cannons and the screams of the dying.  Ahh!  Music to my ears.

 

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