Author Topic: Historic Photos/GAF weapons  (Read 146345 times)

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3655
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #100 on: November 29, 2009, 07:44:49 pm »
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 07:48:34 pm by Drydock »
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Charles Isaac

  • Grand Army of the Frontier
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 691
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #101 on: December 29, 2009, 09:06:02 pm »
These are some guys that are the reason we went from the .38 New Army/Navy Revolver to reissued M1873 SAAs and a couple of other .45 Colt caliber revolvers, finally ending up with the M1911.

They aren't large men, but they are very tough and incredibly agile - more than a match for an above average Soldier or Marine in close combat. If they are fatally wounded, but still able to fight, they will still go to work with those razor sharp blades.

 



So, what is this US Army Lieutenant in the Philippine Constabulary armed with?  (We all know you what it is, Col Drydock!)

Hey, that holster and belt isn't regulation! :P


Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3655
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #102 on: January 04, 2010, 07:04:53 pm »
Big, heavy servicable thing I'd say . . . Probably new . . .   ;)

You sure he's army?  That looks like an eagle/globe/anchor on his hat.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 07:06:55 pm by Drydock »
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Leo Tanner

  • RATS #401 STORM 330
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8116
  • Life is Good
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #103 on: January 04, 2010, 10:18:53 pm »
Marine Corps would explain the dour look on his face.
"When you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk."
     Tuco--The Good the Bad and the Ugly

"First comes smiles, then lies.  Last is gunfire."
     Roland Deschain

"Every man steps in the manure now an again, trick is not ta stick yer foot in yer mouth afterward"

religio SENIOR est exordium of scientia : tamen fossor contemno sapientia quod instruction.



Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3655
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2010, 06:50:29 pm »
On the line in the Phillipines
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Charles Isaac

  • Grand Army of the Frontier
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 691
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #105 on: January 13, 2010, 06:19:44 pm »



Oh yeah, this guy is Philippine Constabulary, wearing their trademark non standard leather and armed with what the Constabulary considered he best jungle fighting pistol.

 If you were getting sent to the Philippines in the early 1900s and you were in the Philippine Constabulary, you got issued one of these. If regular Army and you could scrounge enough money for the new technology, you bought a New Service or one of these, otherwise, you bought an old SAA or-settled for the issue .38.

Well, it's former US Army Issue, but they get no love today. So, what is it? C'mon! Don't you people like silly question and answer quizzes?  ;D

Offline Texas Lawdog

  • NCOWS Senator "Old School" Cop
  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 14671
  • " We're all Here because We're not all There".
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #106 on: January 13, 2010, 06:58:56 pm »
I was lucky enough to buy one of those Constabluary revolvers in 38 long colt. It's a honey.
SASS#47185  RO I   ROII       NCOWS#2244  NCOWS Life #186  BOLD#393 GAF#318 SCORRS#1 SBSS#1485  WASA#666  RATS#111  BOSS#155  Storm#241 Henry 1860#92 W3G#1000  Warthog AZSA #28  American Plainsmen Society #69  Masonic Cowboy Shootist  Hiram's Rangers#18  FOP  Lt. Col  Grand Army of The Frontier, Life Member CAF
   Col.  CAF  NRA  TSRA   BOA  Dooley Gang  BOPP  ROWSS  Scarlet Mask Vigilance Society Great Lakes Freight and Mining Company  Cow Cracker Cavalry   Berger Sharpshooters "I had no Irons in the Fire". "Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie"?

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3655
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #107 on: January 13, 2010, 07:56:51 pm »
Charles, I'd just about bet thats a New Service in that holster.  The reflection off the frame next to the hammer seems to have the longer sweep of the NS, with no divot for the loading gate.  Same with the gentle hump at the top of the grip.  The hammer spur seems too low as well.  IMHO . . . .  ???
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3655
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #108 on: January 18, 2010, 09:57:59 pm »
At the end of this video is a nice shot of a squad doing a rapid fire demonstration with Trapdoor rifles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHicAr1-uZs&feature=related
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline pony express

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3405
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #109 on: January 19, 2010, 10:18:29 pm »
My first thought was also the 1878, but when I compared it to some pictures, the hump on the grip looks wrong. Shape of the frame beside the hammer wrong too, Drydock could be right, maybe a New Service? On the other hand, it DOES look like a bird's head shape grip, unless it's just the camera angle and shadows that make it look that way.

Offline Charles Isaac

  • Grand Army of the Frontier
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 691
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2010, 11:42:55 am »
My first thought was also the 1878, but when I compared it to some pictures, the hump on the grip looks wrong. Shape of the frame beside the hammer wrong too, Drydock could be right, maybe a New Service? On the other hand, it DOES look like a bird's head shape grip, unless it's just the camera angle and shadows that make it look that way.

This picture has always been controversial and I have seen all the points you and Col Drydock speak of!

There is no  hump in the middle of the slope from the rear sight notch to the top of the grip at the backstrap, but there is the shadow of what may be the cartridge guide that is milled into the right side of the frame that leads to the load gate on a 78 or 02.

The hump at the top of the back of the gripframe is small like a New Service, but the back of the grip looks very rounded like a 78 or 02.

The hammer spur seems too low, but, there seems to be a lot of distance to the top of the gripframe.

The gripframe looks too long, but appears to be a birdshead/round butt

Everything that points to it maybe being one model has a counterpoint, so I have to say that I can't really say for sure whether it is a New Service or an M1902.

One reason it is so hard to tell whether it is a New Service or an M1902 is that photos were frequently touched up with whatever the artists conception happened to be-kind of an archaic form of photoshop. I can not say what it is with absolute certainty The two Colt collectors I know of that own both New Services and M1902s say it is an M1902-but even that doesn't say for sure what was in that man's holster 100 years ago. One thing people agree on is that it is a big Colt double action revolver! :)

Online Delmonico

  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 25262
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #111 on: January 23, 2010, 01:53:55 pm »
I'm at work right no, but I've got some decent photo programs at home that may allow us to get a better look at it, although they might be a bit funny colored, like these two:





And the original:



Not a late 1860's picture like Wison says in The Peacekeepers. ;)
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline Grapeshot

  • Grapeshot. Cpt US Artillery
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1101
  • WARTHOG
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #112 on: January 23, 2010, 03:56:30 pm »
Makes ya wonder what happened to those old 3" ordnance rifles (last produced in 1865!)

A lot of the 3 inch rifles were bored out and re-rifled to 3.2 inch, and the rear of the barrels were cut off and a krupp style breech block installed.  They were also re-mounted in a steel carraige to better stand up to the newer powder being used as a propellant in the brass self contained cartridges.
Listen!  Do you hear that?  The roar of Cannons and the screams of the dying.  Ahh!  Music to my ears.

Offline Leo Tanner

  • RATS #401 STORM 330
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8116
  • Life is Good
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #113 on: January 23, 2010, 05:17:03 pm »
Trying to figure out the vintage on this shot.  I'm sure you all can figger it out.

"When you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk."
     Tuco--The Good the Bad and the Ugly

"First comes smiles, then lies.  Last is gunfire."
     Roland Deschain

"Every man steps in the manure now an again, trick is not ta stick yer foot in yer mouth afterward"

religio SENIOR est exordium of scientia : tamen fossor contemno sapientia quod instruction.



Offline Drydock

  • MA1 USN ret. GAF #19, Colonel, Chief of Staff. BC, CC, SoM. SASS 1248 Life
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3655
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #114 on: January 23, 2010, 07:17:02 pm »
Krags, 1895 forage caps, 5 button blouses with roll collar, The Krags appear to have the 1898/1902 ramp style sight.  Those stick out more than the flatter 1896 or 1901 ladder sights.  I'd say between 1899 and 1903
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Leo Tanner

  • RATS #401 STORM 330
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8116
  • Life is Good
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #115 on: January 23, 2010, 07:52:57 pm »
Thank you Sir!  I had nothing but the picture it's self to go on.
"When you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk."
     Tuco--The Good the Bad and the Ugly

"First comes smiles, then lies.  Last is gunfire."
     Roland Deschain

"Every man steps in the manure now an again, trick is not ta stick yer foot in yer mouth afterward"

religio SENIOR est exordium of scientia : tamen fossor contemno sapientia quod instruction.



Offline Texas Lawdog

  • NCOWS Senator "Old School" Cop
  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 14671
  • " We're all Here because We're not all There".
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #116 on: January 24, 2010, 01:25:44 am »
Leo, These folks that post on this thread know their stuff on these military uniforms of the last 150 years or so.
SASS#47185  RO I   ROII       NCOWS#2244  NCOWS Life #186  BOLD#393 GAF#318 SCORRS#1 SBSS#1485  WASA#666  RATS#111  BOSS#155  Storm#241 Henry 1860#92 W3G#1000  Warthog AZSA #28  American Plainsmen Society #69  Masonic Cowboy Shootist  Hiram's Rangers#18  FOP  Lt. Col  Grand Army of The Frontier, Life Member CAF
   Col.  CAF  NRA  TSRA   BOA  Dooley Gang  BOPP  ROWSS  Scarlet Mask Vigilance Society Great Lakes Freight and Mining Company  Cow Cracker Cavalry   Berger Sharpshooters "I had no Irons in the Fire". "Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie"?

Online Niederlander

  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2162
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #117 on: February 09, 2010, 08:38:29 pm »
I like to search out the original books. Bought a nice "coffee table" book about the Spanish American War. Printed in 1898 so there is no doubt as to the origin of the hundreds of huge photos. Brought it with me to the '09 Muster and a few people looked at it. $20 shipped on Ebay.

This photo was described as being a Sergeant in the Rough Riders. The holster is much like the right hand draw M1889 Naval Services holster. It is set up like a drop style Army holster, but at a straighter angle for right hand draw from the right side.  It's either a"field" modification of an '89 or a purpose built private purchase holster.

Definitely not regulation. Always glad to see people thinking outside the box


Hello!
     As I was looking at this picture it occurred to me the holster might be suspended from one of the brass wire holster hangers.
"There go those Nebraskans, and all hell couldn't stop them!"

Offline Texas Lawdog

  • NCOWS Senator "Old School" Cop
  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 14671
  • " We're all Here because We're not all There".
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #118 on: February 10, 2010, 09:55:05 am »
I think that was 20 dollars well spent, Ned.
SASS#47185  RO I   ROII       NCOWS#2244  NCOWS Life #186  BOLD#393 GAF#318 SCORRS#1 SBSS#1485  WASA#666  RATS#111  BOSS#155  Storm#241 Henry 1860#92 W3G#1000  Warthog AZSA #28  American Plainsmen Society #69  Masonic Cowboy Shootist  Hiram's Rangers#18  FOP  Lt. Col  Grand Army of The Frontier, Life Member CAF
   Col.  CAF  NRA  TSRA   BOA  Dooley Gang  BOPP  ROWSS  Scarlet Mask Vigilance Society Great Lakes Freight and Mining Company  Cow Cracker Cavalry   Berger Sharpshooters "I had no Irons in the Fire". "Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie"?

Offline RattlesnakeJack

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1636
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #119 on: February 16, 2010, 12:20:44 pm »
Just saved this period photo, and a couple of cropped details, from an eBay listing -





Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier
Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/

Online Delmonico

  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 25262
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #120 on: April 03, 2010, 09:37:59 am »
I just found this, says Virginia, April 1865, 12 pound Whitworth breechloader:

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline RattlesnakeJack

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1636
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #121 on: April 03, 2010, 10:22:53 am »
A fine piece from the United Kingdom.   
The American Civil War made a great deal of money for British arms manufacturers ....  ::)
(Which GAF event did you have in mind for this one, Del?   ;) )
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier
Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/

Online Delmonico

  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 25262
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #122 on: April 03, 2010, 11:01:54 am »
A fine piece from the United Kingdom.   
The American Civil War made a great deal of money for British arms manufacturers ....  ::)
(Which GAF event did you have in mind for this one, Del?   ;) )

We'lll take it to the 1904 St. Louis Expo and make puffed rice. ;D
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline Texas Lawdog

  • NCOWS Senator "Old School" Cop
  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 14671
  • " We're all Here because We're not all There".
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #123 on: April 03, 2010, 11:06:23 am »
Rice Krispies! SNAP KRACKLE  POP!
SASS#47185  RO I   ROII       NCOWS#2244  NCOWS Life #186  BOLD#393 GAF#318 SCORRS#1 SBSS#1485  WASA#666  RATS#111  BOSS#155  Storm#241 Henry 1860#92 W3G#1000  Warthog AZSA #28  American Plainsmen Society #69  Masonic Cowboy Shootist  Hiram's Rangers#18  FOP  Lt. Col  Grand Army of The Frontier, Life Member CAF
   Col.  CAF  NRA  TSRA   BOA  Dooley Gang  BOPP  ROWSS  Scarlet Mask Vigilance Society Great Lakes Freight and Mining Company  Cow Cracker Cavalry   Berger Sharpshooters "I had no Irons in the Fire". "Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie"?

Online Delmonico

  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 25262
Re: Historic Photos/GAF weapons
« Reply #124 on: April 03, 2010, 02:26:45 pm »
Couple of Dahlgens, Charleston Harbor, S.C. Rear Admiral John A. Dahlgren standing by a Dahlgren gun on deck of U.S.S. Pawnee.

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.