Author Topic: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions  (Read 36302 times)

Offline captmack

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2009, 01:08:13 pm »
Charles, that's a great looking revolver.  I bet it is a beast!

I picked this one up too in .38.  I'll use it for local matches for Span-Am era with either my Win '95 or Springfield '03.
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Offline Niederlander

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2009, 01:44:02 pm »
My only thought in bringing up the 1917 Colt a while back (on another thread) was that it's a New Service, and usually a little less expensive than the earlier version.  I always assumed I would only use .45 Auto Rim loads, in that half or full moon clips are clearly a speed loading device, which we've never allowed.  I'm emphatically in favor of maintaining that rule.  If we do go with the Pershing Match (or whatever it ends up being called), I think we SHOULD allow clip-loading of the rifles that were designed for it.  That was cutting edge technology in it's day, and it gives people an excuse to learn to use stripper clips!
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Offline captmack

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2009, 02:01:42 pm »
So no speed loading of revolvers but speed loading of rifles is ok?

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Online Charles Isaac

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2009, 02:25:26 pm »

I picked this one up too in .38.  I'll use it for local matches for Span-Am era with either my Win '95 or Springfield '03.

I had one of those with me at the muster too, but blued. Just started grabbin guns out of the safe when I packed up! Illegal for GAF due to being "Heavy Barrel" models though.

Again, I would have shown it to you, but didn't know you used stuff like this-you had those shiny looking eye-talian guns!

Offline Niederlander

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2009, 05:27:07 pm »
So no speed loading of revolvers but speed loading of rifles is ok?

Mack
I believe the issue is that stripper clips were quite common to the era, while speed loading devices for revolvers were largely experimental.  The U.S. Navy had a speedloader system for their .38 Colts, with a belt mounted cartridge box to match (it held two loading devices and six rounds loose), but I've never actually seen one "in the flesh".  The half moon clips used in the Colt and Smith & Wesson 1917 revolvers were definitely Great War specific.  We're trying to steer clear of Great War specific technology.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2009, 05:33:10 pm »
I'm just thinkin' out load here folks . . .  JUST FOR DISCUSSION!

Y'know, we do pistol reloads all day long in GAF.  And the GAF is a rifle focused organization.  How about more empasis on the rifle in the "Expansion" match? Doing movement up the range we cannot do in the Main Match.

  Keep the rules and weapons as is for the Main Match. 15 rounds rifle, 5 rounds handgun.  Classes for Levers, Milspec SS, and Repeater.  4 positions, each advancing 10 yards say, with some sort of obstacle for cover.  Shooter must shoot the rifle in 3 of the 4 positions, choosing to shoot one postion with the handgun.  Targets 25 to 100 yards.  Shooter may choose to engage standing. kneeling or prone.  3 awards: 1st "Expert", 2nd "Sharpshooter" 3rd "Marksman" The handgun becomes a "New York Reload" for the rifleman.

I'd allow rifle reloading on the move, as long as the chamber is kept empty.  (not SS obviously.)  This is debatable of course.
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Offline Dalton Masterson

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2009, 06:01:49 pm »
Drydock, I like this idea.
Advance, using cover, and engaging the appropriate targets. Sounds military to me. Reloading rifles on the fly would be alright too, as long as the bolt is open, which most would be.
What, pray tell, is a New York reload?
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Online Charles Isaac

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2009, 06:08:55 pm »
Dalton, it's late 20th century slang for just pulling out another weapon rather than recharging the weapon you just ran dry. You do it all the time!

I'm just thinkin' out load here folks . . .  JUST FOR DISCUSSION!

Y'know, we do pistol reloads all day long in GAF.  And the GAF is a rifle focused organization.  How about more empasis on the rifle in the "Expansion" match? Doing movement up the range we cannot do in the Main Match.

  Keep the rules and weapons as is for the Main Match. 15 rounds rifle, 5 rounds handgun.  Classes for Levers, Milspec SS, and Repeater.  4 positions, each advancing 10 yards say, with some sort of obstacle for cover.  Shooter must shoot the rifle in 3 of the 4 positions, choosing to shoot one postion with the handgun.  Targets 25 to 100 yards.  Shooter may choose to engage standing. kneeling or prone.  3 awards: 1st "Expert", 2nd "Sharpshooter" 3rd "Marksman" The handgun becomes a "New York Reload" for the rifleman.

I'd allow rifle reloading on the move, as long as the chamber is kept empty.  (not SS obviously.)  This is debatable of course.

This would solve everything! I'm counting 4 New Services and a Webley that we will possibly see running in the Expansion Match at the next Grand Muster! Now I like 1911's, but they get boring. Nothing like some variety with some big bore double action wheelguns blasting away along with the 1911s normally associated with this type match.

Hope this works out!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 06:27:43 pm by Charles Isaac »

Offline Niederlander

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2009, 06:11:30 pm »
The fastest reload is always another gun!
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2009, 06:50:02 pm »
Perhaps I misunderstood the direction the discussion was taking ..... but from the apparent possibility of allowing M'1917 revolvers - which by definition were designed to use .45ACP cartridges in moonclips - coupled with the ongoing talk about moonclips, I was perhaps just assuming that moonclips might be under consideration as permissible with these revolvers. 

Both M'1917 revolver types are admittedly simply WWI-era variants of models which did exist in the Expansion time-period, but are also much more readily available and affordable than the forerunner versions .... so I can fully understand the push to allow them.  To clarify - I have no objection to allowing M'1917's (and other revolvers which use moonclips) to compete in the a "revolver class" as long as the playing field is kept fairly level.  As I mentioned in my earlier post, I think that the easiest way to do that would be to disallow any "rapid loading devices" for revolvers - including moonclips, but also even "period correct" speedloaders ..... which were, indeed rare and/or experimental back then, anyway.
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Online Charles Isaac

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2009, 06:59:02 pm »
The U.S. Navy had a speedloader system for their .38 Colts, with a belt mounted cartridge box to match (it held two loading devices and six rounds loose), but I've never actually seen one "in the flesh".

I have one of the original "USN" marked  leather pouches that holds two of those early speedloaders, plus the 6 additional rounds for the M1889 Navy etc. revolvers. I meant to bring it to the muster for show 'n tell but never got around to digging it out. Don't have any of the speedloaders for it though.

Offline Niederlander

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2009, 07:42:43 pm »
I have one of the original "USN" marked  leather pouches that holds two of those early speedloaders, plus the 6 additional rounds for the M1889 Navy etc. revolvers. I meant to bring it to the muster for show 'n tell but never got around to digging it out. Don't have any of the speedloaders for it though.
Too cool!  I like your kind of collection!
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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #87 on: October 27, 2009, 07:47:45 pm »
I'm just thinkin' out load here folks . . .  JUST FOR DISCUSSION!

Y'know, we do pistol reloads all day long in GAF.  And the GAF is a rifle focused organization.  How about more empasis on the rifle in the "Expansion" match? Doing movement up the range we cannot do in the Main Match.

  Keep the rules and weapons as is for the Main Match. 15 rounds rifle, 5 rounds handgun.  Classes for Levers, Milspec SS, and Repeater.  4 positions, each advancing 10 yards say, with some sort of obstacle for cover.  Shooter must shoot the rifle in 3 of the 4 positions, choosing to shoot one postion with the handgun.  Targets 25 to 100 yards.  Shooter may choose to engage standing. kneeling or prone.  3 awards: 1st "Expert", 2nd "Sharpshooter" 3rd "Marksman" The handgun becomes a "New York Reload" for the rifleman.

I'd allow rifle reloading on the move, as long as the chamber is kept empty.  (not SS obviously.)  This is debatable of course.
It's already in planning for our deparment muster next year.  I'm also looking into an individual decision driven scenario such as the buckskinners do.  Sort of a modified "Hogan's Alley"  If we can do it safely it could be a whole lot of fun!
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #88 on: October 27, 2009, 07:50:58 pm »
Yeah Jack, its a problem for me too,  one of the reasons I'd rather increase the emphasis on the rifle, and drop the handgun reload, IE use the handgun AS a reload for 5 rounds.  Shoot and Scoot rather than Stand and Deliver.  Call it a "Skirmish Run" rather than some form of WB match.  Stick with the Victorian weapons and loose ammo reloads.  IMHO and still for discussion!!  

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Offline Bow View Haymaker

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #89 on: October 27, 2009, 08:25:37 pm »
I still think that most of this should be up to the match directors.  while moving downrange during the stage does add realism, it isn't pratical or even safe a some ranges.  lateral movement could be done instead but again, it would depend on the range design.
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Online Charles Isaac

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #90 on: October 27, 2009, 08:50:13 pm »
  I'm also looking into an individual decision driven scenario such as the buckskinners do.  Sort of a modified "Hogan's Alley"  If we can do it safely it could be a whole lot of fun!


That's what I thought we were going to do at the Grand Muster. Good to see someone is going to implement some "move 'n shoot"!

Offline Texas Lawdog

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2009, 06:26:36 am »
I still can shoot as well as I ever did, I just don't move very fast anymore.
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Online Charles Isaac

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2009, 07:28:58 am »
Me too Lawdog, that's why I say "Move 'n Shoot" instead of "Run 'n Gun"!

 Stick with the Victorian weapons and loose ammo reloads.

The 1903 Springfield is getting no love here!


Offline Texas Lawdog

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2009, 07:34:05 am »
I don't think my Eddystone 1917 is either.
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Online Charles Isaac

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2009, 08:11:17 am »
And I have tons of 30-06 brass and a bunch of lead 174 gr .30 caliber bullets to load up. Was hoping to load some up for next years festivities.

Offline Texas Lawdog

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2009, 08:27:34 am »
My Krag finally made itself back to the place where I purchased it. Now, the next question is, when is going to get to the new FFL?
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Online Charles Isaac

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #96 on: October 28, 2009, 10:22:43 am »
I was shootin a Krag at the last Muster.

What kind of Krag you gettin?

Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #97 on: October 28, 2009, 02:43:50 pm »
We're just discussin' things here folks, nothing is finalized.

Charles, we had a lot more movement planned, but the snow and mud took care of a lot of that.  It helps to have stage berms as well, to allow movement up and downrange in addition to lateral.  Thats one of the things we can really expand on with a sidematch, nothing else going on, allowing us to move more.
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Online Charles Isaac

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #98 on: October 28, 2009, 03:06:48 pm »
You all did such a good job planning the '09 Muster that it caused me to have too much fun and forget about the snow. All froze up, I probably would have slipped and broken something if I tried to move too fast!

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions
« Reply #99 on: October 28, 2009, 09:05:11 pm »
Thanks, CI!
The snow changed a lot of things. It forced us to shoot fewer stages and eliminated the prone and kneeling parts of the match. Oh well, adapt and over come! It made for a muster I doubt any of the participants will forget it any time soon (if for no other reason than getting to shoot it in greatcoats and fur hats).

BTW I put a downpayment on a beautiful M-1898 Krag rifle this afternoon. I'll probably stick with my trapdoors for the main match. but probably use the krag in the side matches.

I want to emphacize what Col. Drydock said about nothing being set in stone regarding the side matches. General Scout, Col. Drydock and I have been discussing this extensively and noting the discussion here. When a decision is made it will be the correct decision for the best intrests of the GAF. A case in point: the GAF Postal Shoot revisions that will be unvieled later this winter have been in the works for over two years. And that reminds me there's still a few days left to register for the fall 2009 GAF postal match. The match ends Nov. 30.
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